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Old 17-02-2016, 14:04   #31
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Thanks for the detailed info and analysis. My wife and I just spent 4 days and came away with almost identical thoughts. We will be cruising with 2 small children so for us, comfort and safety are primary objectives with performance being icing on the cake.

For LONG term cruising the L42 just felt right. It was large, bright, comfortable and to use my wife's terms (mine too admittedly) homey.

If we are to be real that 90% plus of you time will be spent at anchor, this boat in our minds was the clear winner!

Not just to decide and research all the 179 tax stuff and if it makes any sense to buy now and through one in charter, or write a check for it when we are ready to leave in 5 years................. any advise would be appreciated!
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Old 17-02-2016, 14:25   #32
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

was also in Miami.

For the most part, looking at these boats made me realize that I'm glad I didn't buy new.

Only two boats struck me at all:
1. The TOMCAT. This boat is a much better-thought-out Gemini type, in fact the interior is very like the older Gemini in layout, but the fit is much higher quality and the boat in general appears a better boat.

2. the BALANCE. I think the Gunboat met its match. Went aboard the bigger one, wish I'd have gone aboard the smaller one as well. Rigging is nicely thought out, not put under panels. Layout is intelligent. Nifty wheel that can lock in different positions, and quite a few other clever little bits. I might not have gone with the sharp corners in the galley, and the phenomenally large steam-shower would have gone forward and the master cabin aft if I had the choice. Those with the dosh should consider this rather than the Outremer imo. damn that new Outie is ugly...
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Old 17-02-2016, 15:21   #33
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

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Originally Posted by ol1970 View Post
...looking at boats under the following premise: able to be single handed/sailed as a couple, ... 6-12 month at a time liveaboard with time for breaks in between, able to comfortably carry 6 adults for a couple weeks at a time, mostly island hopping with a couple potential crossings...
Pretty much exactly what we've been doing for the past 5 years and (FWIW) came repeatedly to the view that we really could not have done better than our beloved 3-cabin L440.

We spent 4 years as cat buyers, a process that morphed enormously as we worked our through the choices available and (most importantly) which of the many variables were the priority to us. Safety in all conditions and comfort were probably our top priorities...and although we know there are other cats out there much more performance oriented, we never felt inadequate or frustrated when the sails were up.

We'd probably share the view that buying used is preferable to new. We actually did it a bit both ways, bought 6 mos old so still under warranty and, as we would learn, not really de-bugged as yet; that was a frustrating experience. Once we worked through the bugs (while sailing her from the Med to OZ!) she was (and still is) a brilliant vessel.

We wish all of you well in your searches!
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Old 17-02-2016, 17:35   #34
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

We went to the Miami boat show with full intentions to buy either a Lagoon 42 or a Helia 44. For us they were both quite disappointing for various reasons. To our surprise we ended up buying a R&C Leopard 44. 😄👏👍. We take possession June 15. The build quality seemed far superior to us than the other two we were considering. A lot of things that were options or aftermarket add-ons on the Lagoon & FP were standard on the leopard. Simple things like fuel transfer pumps, secondary high water bilge alarms, everything being labeled in the bilges , simple well thought out system to lower and loosen your jack lines, Electric winches at the dingy hoist system etc. etc.
When considering that most time is spent at anchor, the Leopard has great outdoor spaces in the forward and aft cockpits as well as a great salon. Seems like they concentrated on the central socializing spaces. Yes the state rooms are a little bit smaller but that's not where you spend most of your time. Plus the narrower hulls should increase performance somewhat.
As an aside the Lagoon 42 and Helia 44 both have laminate and some wood in the shower spaces and heads which were obviously going to get wet. This is just a problem waiting to happen. This was not the case in the leopard. The galley in the lagoon was just not very functional. The refrigeration was subpar and little things like a bathroom size waste can in the galley were irritating. The compression post in the middle also broke up the flow of the space. On the Helia , there was broken hardware and hinges on the show boat. The laminate going down the starboard hull was also starting to peel and wear. This was a new boat and the only wear and tear was at the boat show. This tells you something about the build quality. There were other things but I won't go on and on.
Other than that both the lagoon 42 and the Helia 44 are fantastic designs but just not for us.
Anyhow we are ecstatic with our decision and can't wait to get out there.

Raj


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Old 17-02-2016, 19:34   #35
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

grymtter - why wouldn't you go to the spring Annapolis boat show instead of waiting until fall.
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Old 17-02-2016, 19:39   #36
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Silly me, Thought you meant one of these.

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Old 18-02-2016, 07:49   #37
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

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We went to the Miami boat show with full intentions to buy either a Lagoon 42 or a Helia 44. For us they were both quite disappointing for various reasons. To our surprise we ended up buying a R&C Leopard 44. ������. We take possession June 15. The build quality seemed far superior to us than the other two we were considering. A lot of things that were options or aftermarket add-ons on the Lagoon & FP were standard on the leopard. Simple things like fuel transfer pumps, secondary high water bilge alarms, everything being labeled in the bilges , simple well thought out system to lower and loosen your jack lines, Electric winches at the dingy hoist system etc. etc.
When considering that most time is spent at anchor, the Leopard has great outdoor spaces in the forward and aft cockpits as well as a great salon. Seems like they concentrated on the central socializing spaces. Yes the state rooms are a little bit smaller but that's not where you spend most of your time. Plus the narrower hulls should increase performance somewhat.
As an aside the Lagoon 42 and Helia 44 both have laminate and some wood in the shower spaces and heads which were obviously going to get wet. This is just a problem waiting to happen. This was not the case in the leopard. The galley in the lagoon was just not very functional. The refrigeration was subpar and little things like a bathroom size waste can in the galley were irritating. The compression post in the middle also broke up the flow of the space. On the Helia , there was broken hardware and hinges on the show boat. The laminate going down the starboard hull was also starting to peel and wear. This was a new boat and the only wear and tear was at the boat show. This tells you something about the build quality. There were other things but I won't go on and on.
Other than that both the lagoon 42 and the Helia 44 are fantastic designs but just not for us.
Anyhow we are ecstatic with our decision and can't wait to get out there.

Raj
Congrats Raj, that is awesome! That is exactly what makes this hobby/lifestyle so much fun...different boats hit it out of the park for different people. I really liked the Leopards as well, I did my ASA114 on one and they are very nice boats. The thing I just could not get over in my mind is the big walk through door to the bow and seating area. I know you should never get caught out in big waves & I know these things come over on their own bottom, but it just worries me that area could get swamped and through handling off at the most inopportune time during a crossing. I'm sure I'm out in left field on this one though there are hundreds out there happily sailing the worlds oceans as I sit here typing on an internet forum Enjoy the new rig in good health and hope to be anchored out next to you one day!
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Old 18-02-2016, 09:04   #38
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Monte, my suggestion to the OP was that if he had a 2-3 years prior to departing on his cruisung life, he might be better off first purchasing a good used example of a popular cat in the size range he is considering. The benefit is this:

For most of us, but especially for a first-time sailboat purchaser like the OP, the first cruising sailboat we buy will not likely be our last. Time aboard will enable him to conclude where on the comfort/performance scale (or cost/quality) he and his wife want to be. It will also allow them to discover design features that they like and dislike - some, with experience, may even turn out to be dealbreakers for them. If he buys a popular model and maintains it, his total cost of ownership over the first two - three years should be much less than on a new boat. Indeed, if properly equipped and maintained, a 6 year old model of the same boat can be very close in price to an 8 year old one.

Once he has a better idea of his wants and needs he would be, IMO, in a much better position in which to decide what constitutes the ideal boat for him.

Brad
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Old 18-02-2016, 09:35   #39
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Thanks ol1970.
Yes the issue about the swamping of the forward cockpit came up with us as well however these boats have had literally millions of miles sailed from deliveries to private use to charter use etc and The issue really has never come up. They also tried to manually flood it for some European certification and it still wasn't an issue. If you lift up the drainage hatch in the forward cockpit you'll see that they are too big old holes there to drain the water. Nothing fancy just too big ass holes. The lagoon 440 and the 450 also have a similar seating area in the front but without the overhang and I don't think it's a big issue for those boats either. I think people make it out to be more of an issue than it really is.
Hope to see you out there
Raj


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Old 18-02-2016, 13:31   #40
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Congrats Raj. We chartered a Leopard 44 and really like the boat for the same reasons you mention. Overall a very well thought out boat.


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Old 18-02-2016, 14:26   #41
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

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Congrats Raj. We chartered a Leopard 44 and really like the boat for the same reasons you mention. Overall a very well thought out boat.


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Thanks pathlesschosen!
I agree it is a very well-thought-out boat.



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Old 18-02-2016, 15:19   #42
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Be careful of the 179 tax strategies if you plan to use your boat. IMO boat use undermines the strategy

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Old 18-02-2016, 15:24   #43
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

We liked in descending order (not considering price) the outremer 45, balance 451, Seawind 1260 (not at show but we saw the 1160) and the Bavaria open 40. When we consider price is when the fun begins. Price will be considered and a decision will be made. Only certainty Is compromise

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Old 18-02-2016, 22:09   #44
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Did anyone have a look at the Maverick 440? If so what were your thoughts? It's $580k fully loaded with gen, air con, water maker etc.


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Old 18-02-2016, 22:15   #45
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