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Old 17-02-2016, 06:46   #16
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Great analysis, ol1970!

The Antares is top of my list, and budget, but no matter what else I look at, I keep coming back to the 44i (or 44e variant). I have checked with Antares, and they only have 2 slots left for 2019 delivery, and am hoping to grab one of those. Yes, the Antares is not the fastest cat around, but I will not be in any hurry on my circumnavigation, and would like to do it as comfortably as possible.

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Old 17-02-2016, 07:18   #17
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

My wife and I were also at the show, and we very much fell in love with the Outremer 45. The vendor rep -- Just Catamarans, I think, was the vendor -- told us there is a two-year waitlist for a new one...

I really found myself wishing there were more manufacturers there. I mean, it's Miami, right? The show was, to us, surprisingly small.

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Old 17-02-2016, 07:36   #18
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

In comparison to the Annapolis show I agree. There were different models at this show however compared to the fall Annapolis show. Next year the show will be moved over to where the powerboat show was this year which I can see being an absolute nightmare for traffic and parking. It was a nice walk from the Intercontinental.

I would have loved to see additional models as I was able to see every Cat during the preview day. My hopes are with the vendors that are new to the game and didn't have any models for this show but did hope to have hulls #1 out for next year.

Royal Cape had a couple of their 530's on site which were stunning. 7 foot ceiling height in a cat is nice when you and your s/o are both over 6 feet.

Glad you were there and once again, I agree I would have liked to have seen more of a turnout. Looks like I have to go to Paris to see the Open 46.

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Old 17-02-2016, 09:14   #19
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Thanks ol1970 for your post. My wife and I are shopping as well, life long mono hull sailors. I think your observations are right on the mark. Buying a boat is a personal experience and a true compromise on the performance/comfort characteristics that are important to you and your planned use of the boat.
After a year of evaluating boats, our short list is currently the Outremer 45, Open 46, Slyder 47, and FP 44. We are planning to attend the La Grande Motte show in April to do side by side comparisons and test sails. Will let you know what we select.
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Old 17-02-2016, 09:50   #20
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

I was also pretty impressed with the Outremer. I noticed on their website that they have a rental program (in the services section) which I am investigating.

Regarding payload, they told me that 10.5 tonnes was the design displacement they used for their polars, which looked pretty good, which means about 1.8 tonnes payload. Figure 600kg for fuel/water, another 200-300kg of crew means another 1000 kg for provisions, gear etc, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

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Old 17-02-2016, 09:55   #21
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

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Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
Did you look at Seawind models? Been very happy with mine, and it has good performance. I understand some of the new models have daggerboards.
I have been more than happy with my Seawind. I have a friend who has a Shuttleworth. A dockwalker was looking at his boat and my friend suggested the dockwalker and his wife look at my boat as well. I made the comment that you could fit ten or twelve folks comfortably in the Shuttleworth cockpit as well as have three or four folks be able to lie down on the bench seats compared to my boat which probably could only seat six or eight with space for two to lie down less comfortably.

The husband said he liked entertaining a smaller number of folks in more intimate spaces while the wife liked entertaining larger crowds in more open spaces.

There is no right or wrong answer to which of the two boats are better, just which one fits your needs best. But sometimes there is a problem figuring just what your needs are.
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Old 17-02-2016, 10:55   #22
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Thanks for the thought, ol1970!

We went through the same process and ended up with the Antares 44i. Our delivers at the end of the year (we hope!) and we're off!

Someone mentioned used boats. Take a look at the website, Antares Yachts: Building the World's Best Liveaboard Catamaran, there are several 'pre-owned' boats for sale. One of the nice thing about the Antares is that, even as a second or third owner, you are still part of the Antares family, and the factory and owners will talk to you. Cases in point are s/v Golden Glow and s/v Rehua - follow them on their blogs linked on the Antares website; they are at least second owners, and highlighted on the website. Two benefits of used are:1) you don't have to wait the years we all have for delivery, and 2) these are not typically boats that have sat at dock for years decaying away. Their owners have lived on them and maintained them.

Whatever way you go, best of luck!
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Old 17-02-2016, 11:19   #23
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

I"m also a big fan of the Antares 44i. It's at the top of my list. But it's on a different level when it comes to cost vs. competitor models. Almost twice the cost of the Helia 44.
My question, is it worth it the additional cost for what you get? The FP 44 and Lagoon 450 are also nice... Just trying to determine if I can afford the Antares (used), and if so.. is it worth the cost difference.
Thoughts?
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Old 17-02-2016, 12:34   #24
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

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I"m also a big fan of the Antares 44i. It's at the top of my list. But it's on a different level when it comes to cost vs. competitor models. Almost twice the cost of the Helia 44.
My question, is it worth it the additional cost for what you get? The FP 44 and Lagoon 450 are also nice... Just trying to determine if I can afford the Antares (used), and if so.. is it worth the cost difference.
Thoughts?
All of these decisions are just so subjective, it is a very tough process if you don't have years of experience being on all of these different boats. My internal struggle is (1) the cost vs. value proposition (2) performance vs. comfort.

On (1) is the cost of an 44i worth double? It is a REALLY nice boat, the attention to detail is obvious...but the sunsets will be equally as beautiful and the memories of the places traveled will be just as vivid. Being an engineer I always have to quantify things. First if the cost of a 44i keeps you from going, that's easy...get the less costly boat and go now. If you have the money, and actually conscientious about spending your money you have to look at the overall cost of ownership. Lets say hypothetically I buy a lightly used newer 45i for $800k and I travel around the world for 6 years on it and it depreciates an overly conservative 6% year (~$590k value) then pay a broker to sell it, lets say I come out with $540k...or roughly $43k per year for the experience of owning the nicer boat. This is a way overly simplification I realize, but work with me here (not factoring in taxes, opportunity cost of money tied up in boat, assumes maintenance costs will be identical on a H44 or L450, your circumstances change and cut the trip short, etc). Even if I am way out in left field and its 20% less than that, is it worth $3k per month extra? Probably for some, maybe not for others. My guess is I'm probably underestimating costs, and I'm going in with the assumption its going to cost me more. This should be more about the experience though than the dollars, but it is good to write all this stuff down and talk it out in the decision making process.

(2) Performance vs. comfort. They are all really nice boats in this class and would all be comfortable. Monte I think brought up and excellent point about loading down the O45 with cruising gear and supplies for a month, odds are it would not be as big of performance difference. I am leaning momentarily away from the higher performance in favor of comfort. I could definitely see boat #2 being something more performance oriented though, but who knows.

If we only had the information available to us like when you buy a car. There are NADA pricing guides for mileage/options/condition, you can test drive 10 cars in a weekend, you can look up performance numbers on how they stack up to the competition in the real world 0-60, MPG, top speed. Unfortunately cats are not like cars, we have to do our due diligence in a different manner. Every single current sailboat owner I have spoken to has told me to buy a used boat, shockingly the dealers think it is better to buy a new boat, again they are both right in certain respects. Thankfully I have time make my decision and some very helpful people like you on this forum to help me out along the way!
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Old 17-02-2016, 12:49   #25
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

Sounds like us ..... We attended the Miami boat show trying to answer THE question..... which one for us? We are long time boaters, sail boat and power boat junkies... yes we currently have multiple boat and trying to pair down before we purchase another... geez what an addiction.

We went to compare side by side in one sitting our choices lagoon 42 helia 44 lepoard 48 the 48 because we are also fighting 6 foot itis.

Our decision is to stick with a production model for many reasons, the a larger community to help answer questions/solve problems, sourcing parts (while out there), warranty service and resale after swallowing the anchor.

our last question is .... how do you spend 1M and not get exactly what you want?
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Old 17-02-2016, 13:11   #26
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

I sounds like we have similar thought processes Ol. Cost of ownership including depreciation, not to mention $$ tied up that might actually be making money. I guess I'd be one of the first to advise buying new in some circumstances. I'm not sure why you were advised to buy used but it might be worth asking if the owners giving advice had actually bought new or used or were just sharing some anecdotal information.
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Old 17-02-2016, 13:29   #27
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

A couple other boats to think about -
- Catana 42. I was on one for a few weeks last fall. Nice boat, good performance.
- Absolu 50. VERY FAST. A bit spartan. Tons of space.
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Old 17-02-2016, 13:35   #28
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

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our last question is .... how do you spend 1M and not get exactly what you want?
That's easy...like everything else in life it comes down to how much is "enough". Do I have enough money to go cruising, do I have enough experience, is my house big enough, is my car fast enough, do I have enough boat to make me happy. It just comes down to your personal scale...thankfully everybody is different and that is what makes the world go around. It is crazy to think we are talking about boats that cost so much and that there is somebody out there that couldn't be happy with "only" a $400,000 boat. First world problems for sure!
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Old 17-02-2016, 13:48   #29
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

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I sounds like we have similar thought processes Ol. Cost of ownership including depreciation, not to mention $$ tied up that might actually be making money. I guess I'd be one of the first to advise buying new in some circumstances. I'm not sure why you were advised to buy used but it might be worth asking if the owners giving advice had actually bought new or used or were just sharing some anecdotal information.
It's nice to know I'm not the only crazy person out there that looks at this stuff from all the angles! So I think that the boat owners I've met with were very $ driven and maybe because a couple of them were trying to sell their used boats they know how it can be a long and tedious process! A "deal" on a used boat a lot of times ends up just inheriting somebody else's problems. I bought my last two boats new, and don't really regret it one bit...sure they have cost me a bit more to own, but I got exactly what I wanted and they have been trouble free.

Unfortunately this one would not fair so well in the open ocean (pic attached) hence the search for my first cat! (I'm keeping this one though since it is a lot of fun during Michigan summers!)
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Old 17-02-2016, 13:59   #30
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Re: Random thoughts from my weekend of Cat shopping in Miami

The Antares are gorgeous. Like the difference should I buy Mercedes or a Bentley. Nice problem to have I guess. Also, are you really willing to wait over three years for delivery. They are saying 2019...but is it a locked in delivery date?


I can't even imagine how exciting it was at the show. By the way back in 1990 I was at the Miami boat show and went out on the French cat Privilege. Wind was around 7-8 knots. There were about 3 crew and 10 "hopefuls, including myself". Boat speed was around 2-3 knots and just wallowed. Next ride was on a F27 Corsair trimaran. I was hooked. Same air doing 7 knots upwind and about 12 knots reaching. Different tools for different fools. Could never make an Antares do what a light trimaran can. Can never do what a heavy Cat can do for payload and accomodations on a small tri. Best of luck in your research and choices. It is an exciting time for you and the Mrs...
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