Question for Gemini owners

[Canibul]

Ok, lets say you have done a lot of searching, reading, talking, looking, and thinking.

And that you have pretty much decided that for what you want to do, and where you want to do it, one of the later Gemini's is the best choice you can make. For a variety of reasons, but this isn't about that.

Okay, if you had a max of $ 100K to spend on the boat, would you spend it all, or most of it, on one of the newer 105's which would be the 105Mc if you could find one, or a 105M if not....

OR,

would you spend $ 50K on a 3400 and use the other 50K to fix/replace/upgrade as far as you could get for 50K?

Gonna spend a hundred either way, but one way leaves you with a boat that you cannot spend any more money on for a while, while the other approach pretty much gets you an older boat but in really good shape.

I mean, is there REALLY $ 50,000 difference between the 3400 and the 105's?

[dana-tenacity]

Need more data- what are you planning to do with the boat?

I would buy the cheap one, throw away anything that doesn't work, don't bother replacing it coz it was junk anyway, and spend the remaining 50k crusing somewhere warm till the money ran out - but that's just me.

[Canibul]

Cruising from here (Turks and Caicos) within the Caribbean, Bahamas, Central America, and the Gulf of Mexico. No Panama Canal, no Atlantic Ocean crossings.

Two people and a small dog.

[dana-tenacity]

Sounds like fun, I'd go for the cheaper one and leave, assuming the hulls and rig are good. Only add frilly stuff six months after you think you might like it.

[Canibul]

Well, we weren't planning on cruising it all at one go. A week here, a week there, up thru the Bahamas for a few weeks, over to Mexico eventually...

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by Canibul

snip

Gonna spend a hundred either way, but one way leaves you with a boat that you cannot spend any more money on for a while, while the other approach pretty much gets you an older boat but in really good shape.

I mean, is there REALLY $ 50,000 difference between the 3400 and the 105's?

Not a Gemini owner and can't comment on difference between the boats, but any boat older than 7 years is going to need replacement of wear-items (rigging, sails, canvas, mechanical and "systems", etc.). It all adds up fast, and you'd do better if you plan to have at least 10-20% of purchase price available to fix/upgrade any used boat purchase (even one in fairly good hull condition). Much more if it's in bad condition or if you hire a yard to do it.

When you do your pre-purchase survey you should make a list of upgrades, divide into "need" and "want" (structural/mechanical vs. cosmetic/personal preference) and double the estimate to account for the unforeseen and those "boat presents" you'll inevitably pick up on impulse. That will get you closer to your real cost.

One other consideration is resale: Total cost of ownership TCO=purchase+operating costs+upgrades/maint/storage+resale costs-resale price. A boat in higher demand on resale will be easier to sell and is more worthwhile investing in upgrades, so in the end it might cost less than the cheaper boat.

Too often the fixer-upper ends up in the "broken dreams" section of boatyards, and becomes a liability for "the estate" or owner who has an unfortunate change in health or finances.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Canibul

Ok, lets say you have done a lot of searching, reading, talking, looking, and thinking.

And that you have pretty much decided that for what you want to do, and where you want to do it, one of the later Gemini's is the best choice you can make. For a variety of reasons, but this isn't about that.

Okay, if you had a max of $ 100K to spend on the boat, would you spend it all, or most of it, on one of the newer 105's which would be the 105Mc if you could find one, or a 105M if not....

OR,

would you spend $ 50K on a 3400 and use the other 50K to fix/replace/upgrade as far as you could get for 50K?

Gonna spend a hundred either way, but one way leaves you with a boat that you cannot spend any more money on for a while, while the other approach pretty much gets you an older boat but in really good shape.

I mean, is there REALLY $ 50,000 difference between the 3400 and the 105's?

The 50K Geminis generally have challenges. They are an older design and cannot be made new. I decided there was a 50K difference, I looked at the newer ones, and then decided that for 100K I could afford a much more solid boat that would hold it's value AND go off-shore. Not counting the original outboards that were simply tired, nothing breaks!

[Canibul]

I can appreciate that. However, believe it or not, the lower price is not really the main reason we are planning to buy a Gemini. We could afford to buy a new one if we chose to. But being basically the thrifty sort in the first place, I would rather find a boat that was already equipped to do what I want to do, buy it, and go sailing. I figure all the nit picky stuff has been fixed. The things that a boat needs, which really add up, will have already been purchased, installed, and are functional. Surely there is a sailaway boat around that someone needs to sell for whatever reason. Especially in this economy. We have cash.

I have bought new boats before, and my experience has been that they need additional work and additions, too. It's not like buying a new car and driving it home from the lot. With a car you expect to start using it immediately. Every new boat I have had experience with needed multiple things fixed, adjusted, and replaced, and it drags on and on when you live in a remote location. I am hoping I can find a boat that is already equipped the way I want, for the most part.

Its simply that the Gemini is the only boat I have seen out there that does what we want. If it cost another hundred thousand, it would STILL be the only boat out there with that much headroom, a comfy bunk for two, narrow enough to fit into normal slips, that draws 18 inches of water, and had boards and rudders that will still be functional after I run it over a shoal or coral head. Which will happen here.

there is no competition for it. If anyone knows a better boat with similar specs, please let me know. Catalacs? nope. too much draft. Plus they are rare. And old. What else? Endeavor cats? See above. Performance is still in business. I can find parts. It means a lot. We don't use shipyards. We don't really have any. Not that I would use again, anyway.

Yeah, there are heavier built boats. They need three to four feet of water. No good. And heavier boats are not always the answer. I suscribe to the idea that boats should sail over the water. Not force their way through it.

We never plan to cross an ocean. No desire to do that. I worked on and under the ocean for almost 40 years. Three weeks at sea is a very common experience for me, and in much bigger boats than we are talking about on this forum.

There is no attraction to me in sailing across the Atlantic or the Pacific. There is no attraction in going 'offshore'. There is just flat ass nothing to see offshore. Water, clouds...been there. Done that.

I understand people want to be able to say they have done that, and it's an accomplishment, for sure. Me? I DO want to explore Tonga. And Greece.

And we plan to fly there, charter a nice big comfy cat for a week or two, do it, and fly home to our little island and our little sailboat.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Canibul

I can appreciate that. However, believe it or not, the lower price is not really the main reason we are planning to buy a Gemini. We could afford to buy a new one if we chose to. But being basically the thrifty sort in the first place, I would rather find a boat that was already equipped to do what I want to do, buy it, and go sailing. I figure all the nit picky stuff has been fixed. The things that a boat needs, which really add up, will have already been purchased, installed, and are functional. Surely there is a sailaway boat around that someone needs to sell for whatever reason. Especially in this economy. We have cash.

I have bought new boats before, and my experience has been that they need additional work and additions, too. It's not like buying a new car and driving it home from the lot. With a car you expect to start using it immediately. Every new boat I have had experience with needed multiple things fixed, adjusted, and replaced, and it drags on and on when you live in a remote location. I am hoping I can find a boat that is already equipped the way I want, for the most part.

Its simply that the Gemini is the only boat I have seen out there that does what we want. If it cost another hundred thousand, it would STILL be the only boat out there with that much headroom, a comfy bunk for two, narrow enough to fit into normal slips, that draws 18 inches of water, and had boards and rudders that will still be functional after I run it over a shoal or coral head. Which will happen here.

there is no competition for it. If anyone knows a better boat with similar specs, please let me know. Catalacs? nope. too much draft. Plus they are rare. And old. What else? Endeavor cats? See above. Performance is still in business. I can find parts. It means a lot. We don't use shipyards. We don't really have any. Not that I would use again, anyway.

Yeah, there are heavier built boats. They need three to four feet of water. No good. And heavier boats are not always the answer. I suscribe to the idea that boats should sail over the water. Not force their way through it.

We never plan to cross an ocean. No desire to do that. I worked on and under the ocean for almost 40 years. Three weeks at sea is a very common experience for me, and in much bigger boats than we are talking about on this forum.

There is no attraction to me in sailing across the Atlantic or the Pacific. There is no attraction in going 'offshore'. There is just flat ass nothing to see offshore. Water, clouds...been there. Done that.

I understand people want to be able to say they have done that, and it's an accomplishment, for sure. Me? I DO want to explore Tonga. And Greece.

And we plan to fly there, charter a nice big comfy cat for a week or two, do it, and fly home to our little island and our little sailboat.

I wish I could blend the best of several boats together... but, allas.

The 2 things about the Gemini I did not like were the slapping under the deck, and the helm visibility. I really like the 360 vision of the PDQ, but the Gemini is more livable.

Actually, I have not found the 16' beam to be a problem. Lots work boats and power boats are wide, so I can find something... If I don't mind that the water is only 4' deep! Thus, I tend to find myself tied up in powerboat and work boat marinas. At 18' beam the problem gets serious.

[Canibul]

from what I have seen of them, the vis for the helmsman is a bit obstructed. I can see it would take me some concentration to put the port side of one of those up against a dock, for example. And I might be casting the odd nervous glance over the bimini if I was hugging channel buoys...

But you get used to just about any handling characteristic eventually, don't you? All boats have their peculiarities, or character traits, I suspect.

Please Tell me more about the slap? this is a bridgedeck issue, right? Is it something that moves and flexes the boat, or is it more a noise issue? Has anyone tried any remedies?

If it's a slapping at anchor kind of thing, I suspect we would be anchored in the lee of something. And two feet of water should be enough. that gets you pretty well up into the cove around here.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Canibul

from what I have seen of them, the vis for the helmsman is a bit obstructed. I can see it would take me some concentration to put the port side of one of those up against a dock, for example. And I might be casting the odd nervous glance over the bimini if I was hugging channel buoys...

But you get used to just about any handling characteristic eventually, don't you? All boats have their peculiarities, or character traits, I suspect.

Please Tell me more about the slap? this is a bridgedeck issue, right? Is it something that moves and flexes the boat, or is it more a noise issue? Has anyone tried any remedies?

If it's a slapping at anchor kind of thing, I suspect we would be anchored in the lee of something. And two feet of water should be enough. that gets you pretty well up into the cove around here.

Actually, you are a bit blind most of the time, do to the huge overlapping hard top supports. I didn't think visibility was good even powering. I sail to be outside, and I felt like I was inside. You actually look in the back window and out the front window.

Yes, the slapping is under the bridge. I suggest you take one out someplace with some steep chop; I experienced the pounding inside Annapolis harbor! I understand and believe that it is not harmful, but it's there. On the other hand, Shapdash is being sailed around the world. Certainly the Prouts and Packets pound more, so to each his own.

[mikeandrebecca]

Almost 1 year ago, prior to purchasing our PDQ, I asked Jamie and Seth on Slapdash about their now educated opinion on their Gemini because we too were seriously considering getting one. I don't think they would mind me sharing what they told us:

"We are very happy with the Gemini. If we had the chance to do it all over again we can honestly say that we would do the same thing. Having a small cat has always been an advantage for us. It’s so easy for two people to handle, we can sneak into all the best anchorages because of our shallow draft, and right now we are in a 10 meter mono hull berth… the equivalent cat berth would cost double. Sure when we visit our friends on their Lagoon 380, the 600 or the monster St Francis it feels like unspeakable luxury, but we are always happy to get back to our little slapdash and wouldn’t want the hassle of dealing with their big boat problems. It’s a simple and affordable boat, That may not be for everyone but it sure works for us."

Had we not found an affordable PDQ I am sure we would have gone the Gemini route, and I bet we would be happy with it too.

Mike

[Canibul]

We got a tour of Randy and Hideko's St. Francis 50 when they came through. Swinging on a Star. I can imagine what that feels like after weeks in a Gemini. Must be like going from a trailer home to a mansion.

We are trying to be reaslistic with this boat purchase. We do not want to buy and support more boat than we need. We are trying not to fool ourselves about how much use we will get out of it. If we get to half the places we have planned, we will have done good.

We are accustomed to boating at 50 mph. 7 kts is the slow end of our wahoo trolling speed. We are in the recalibration process. And no matter what other boats I look into, this boat keeps popping back up.

The temptations are there, though. Like chocolate chip cookies on a plate....the cool rear davit/hammock seat....the airconditioner and watermaker and generator....

[firepilot46n]

Please be aware that there is a message board group on Yahoo. It's labeled Gemini_Cats. Ask your question there. It's about to exceed 37K messages covering everything from whats wrong and how to fix it, to who's where and how to hookup with nearby owners for possible show and tells. It's interesting reading.

[Canibul]

Ouch! We had just about decided to go ahead and start zeroing in on the specific Gemini....and I contacted the local marina about a slip, and yeah, they do have room for a 35 ft. boat, and it's only $ 750 for a catamaran, $ 600 a month for a mono.

So far, I haven't tried to make the argument that this 14 ft. beam means it qualifies for the mono slip....but what do you guys think about those prices?

Do you pay $ 750 a month (six month minimum) to keep a ten meter boat in a slip?
Hmm..twenty two bucks a foot....