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Old 08-05-2014, 15:44   #31
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
I often find that people whom have built boats forget about the "hard times" during the build, when they got paid help or a "mate" to do some work who just happens to have been a professional boat builder.

But that doesn't stop them from telling everyone else how "easy" it was to build their boat!

I wonder what the completion rate is (apologies if someone mentioned this earlier) as with aircraft kits I've heard that the completion figure could be less than 20%. Aircraft are arguably a lot more simple than boats too.
Not in my experience. When you're building a boat you get to meet lots of others doing the same. From what I've seen, the number of people who FAIL to complete a kit would be less than 20%.
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Old 08-05-2014, 19:52   #32
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

Maybe I can re-phrase that. "Scratch built" boats are often never finished. "Kit Built" boats have a much higher level of completion.
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Old 08-05-2014, 22:06   #33
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
I wonder what the completion rate is (apologies if someone mentioned this earlier) as with aircraft kits I've heard that the completion figure could be less than 20%.
I don't know what the statistic is, but I'd guess the the completion rate would be higher than 20% because most Schionnings, Fusion 40s and Spirited 380s have actually been built by professional builders not owners. This is not as common with kits from Easy (Peter Snell), Waller or Oram. In past years, Fusion sold quite few cats on the Australian market that were assembled to "motor away" stage, leaving most of the internal fit out to the proud new owners. Some of these have not progressed far from that stage.

In this regard they probably have no more understanding of the boats systems than the buyer of any production catamaran, because they didn't install the system themselves.

As all these kit boats leave much freedom of fit out and internal design the "owner customiser" is free to let their creative juices conjure up some really stupid ideas. The professional builders must shake their heads in disbelief, but continue to do "what the customer desires". Check some of the fit outs on these boats being offered for sale on the used boat market. One wonders what the original owners were self medicating with at the time. This "weird factor" contributes to the reduced prices that some of these custom cats command second hand.

My personal favourites include huge leather recliner rocking chairs on the bridge deck saloon and an orange fish-shaped dining table. You won't find that on a production boat!
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:03   #34
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
Maybe I can re-phrase that. "Scratch built" boats are often never finished. "Kit Built" boats have a much higher level of completion.
Well sure. Scratch built boats are often never even started. It's easy to buy a set of plans...

IMO the price of the kits actually contributes to their completion rate. Not many can afford to throw away the price of a kit, so once you buy, you're pretty much committed to see it through. Certainly was that way in my case.
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:08   #35
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
This is not as common with kits from Easy (Peter Snell), Waller or Oram....
Waller and Snell don't do kits. They sell plans. You have to build from scratch.

I couldn't even guess at the proportion, but a LOT of Schionnings and Spirited 380's are owner built.
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Old 09-05-2014, 11:59   #36
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Originally Posted by thorcat View Post
Prior to Building my boat i got several Australian Catamaran building companies to quote me on a fully finished, ready for long distance cruising schionning 1620 Wilderness Cat, they all averaged around $1.6m, which was comparable to any Imported production cat available at the time.
However This was far more than i wanted to spend, but not wanting to be put off i started doing some sums and i soon realized that if i was prepared to put in a little effort and sub contract the the work out i could make substantial savings.
Having planed this boat for some time prior and doing a lot of research into what i wanted on the boat it wasnt hard to come up with a total material cost ,also allowing for price rises during the build.
So armed with the best information i could get, i organized rent on already established boat building shed, employed a fully qualified semi retired super yacht builder and an offsider for him, my wife and i worked at our business 5 days a week but every week end we were in that boat shed toiling away at our dream to try and cut down labour costs and launch it as quick as possible. The most people we had working on the boat at any one time was seven, this was during the fairing and fitout stage.
Although it did take longer than planned 3yrs instead of 18mths and a lot of sweat and at times stress, the finished product was worth the effort.
Even though the build ran over time it still came in right on the budget i had given it 3 yrs prior.

And the cost you are probably wondering, Total $800,000.
This included
All contracted labour
Cost of Kit
Shed rent
Builders insurance
Painting
Full fitout inside
$30,000 woth of electronics
Carbon mast ,fore beam, daggerboards, steering wheel
Furling boom
2x 75hp Yanmar Diesels
Watermaker
RIB and outboard
Launching and crane costs
Set of laminated sails
And the list goes on, but it does go to show if you do your home work and a little bit of planning, you can get the boat of your dreams and not pay the earth for it.
Hope this helps any one thinking of doing it for themselves.
this is what i was thinking about. With some negotiation i am sure that is possible to obtain very good discounts compared to going directly to a shipyard. Around 50% less in this case....wow!
The biggest concern at this point should be the luck to find the correct labour able to make a good job.....
Cheers
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:54   #37
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Waller and Snell don't do kits. They sell plans. You have to build from scratch.
So the owner or designer gets the ply or flat panels cut using CAD before delivery and a plan becomes a kit. Not much difference for these two designers. Or Oram for that matter. They are all built from flat pack materials that you can cut out yourself or get a bloke with a computer guided router to do that bit for you. These are cheaper to buy, and for some reason most seem to be owner built. Not sure about completion rates for these.

Other kits come with moulded components. Spirited has increased the number of these moulded components in their kits, Fusion is all moulded and gel coated. This makes the kit price much more expensive, but quicker, at least in theory.

Despite these kits being touted as quick and easy many are not completed by amateurs or, should I say, not properly completed. Most Fusion 40s and Spirited 380s for sale or in use in Australia, in my estimation have either been completely or partially professionally built. As I have previously mentioned, many Fusions have poorly finished by owners.

In my experience, the kit assemblies that come in on time and on budget by amateur builders are as rare as rocking horse poo.
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:09   #38
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

The key is understanding that the "boat" bit of the boat is the easiest and quickest part, the plumbing, fairing, finishing, fairing, electrics, fairing, painting and did I mention fairing, is where the real time is spent
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Old 10-05-2014, 09:06   #39
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

How much fairing do you think was needed to build this multihull?

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Old 10-05-2014, 09:12   #40
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Old 10-05-2014, 09:20   #41
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorcat View Post
Prior to Building my boat i got several Australian Catamaran building companies to quote me on a fully finished, ready for long distance cruising schionning 1620 Wilderness Cat, they all averaged around $1.6m, which was comparable to any Imported production cat available at the time.
However This was far more than i wanted to spend, but not wanting to be put off i started doing some sums and i soon realized that if i was prepared to put in a little effort and sub contract the the work out i could make substantial savings.
Having planed this boat for some time prior and doing a lot of research into what i wanted on the boat it wasnt hard to come up with a total material cost ,also allowing for price rises during the build.
So armed with the best information i could get, i organized rent on already established boat building shed, employed a fully qualified semi retired super yacht builder and an offsider for him, my wife and i worked at our business 5 days a week but every week end we were in that boat shed toiling away at our dream to try and cut down labour costs and launch it as quick as possible. The most people we had working on the boat at any one time was seven, this was during the fairing and fitout stage.
Although it did take longer than planned 3yrs instead of 18mths and a lot of sweat and at times stress, the finished product was worth the effort.
Even though the build ran over time it still came in right on the budget i had given it 3 yrs prior.

And the cost you are probably wondering, Total $800,000.
This included
All contracted labour
Cost of Kit
Shed rent
Builders insurance
Painting
Full fitout inside
$30,000 woth of electronics
Carbon mast ,fore beam, daggerboards, steering wheel
Furling boom
2x 75hp Yanmar Diesels
Watermaker
RIB and outboard
Launching and crane costs
Set of laminated sails
And the list goes on, but it does go to show if you do your home work and a little bit of planning, you can get the boat of your dreams and not pay the earth for it.
Hope this helps any one thinking of doing it for themselves.
Thorcat thats a great story. Congrats on your accomplishment. I guess the REAL question that we would like to know is what the boat was worth the day you dropped her in the pond? Comparing that value to the $800,000 cost would shed a lot of light on this subject.
Cheers
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Old 10-05-2014, 19:37   #42
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
So the owner or designer gets the ply or flat panels cut using CAD before delivery and a plan becomes a kit. Not much difference for these two designers. Or Oram for that matter. They are all built from flat pack materials that you can cut out yourself or get a bloke with a computer guided router to do that bit for you. These are cheaper to buy, and for some reason most seem to be owner built. Not sure about completion rates for these.

Other kits come with moulded components. Spirited has increased the number of these moulded components in their kits, Fusion is all moulded and gel coated. This makes the kit price much more expensive, but quicker, at least in theory.

Despite these kits being touted as quick and easy many are not completed by amateurs or, should I say, not properly completed. Most Fusion 40s and Spirited 380s for sale or in use in Australia, in my estimation have either been completely or partially professionally built. As I have previously mentioned, many Fusions have poorly finished by owners.

In my experience, the kit assemblies that come in on time and on budget by amateur builders are as rare as rocking horse poo.
I'm not sure what your "experience' consists of, I guess I must meet different people from you. For instance, the people I know who have completed their Spirited 380's have built them to an extremely high standard. Better than a couple of "Professional" builders I know of.

Most owner builders don't have a time frame. The boat will take as long as it takes. Many build their boats in time off from full-time work.
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Old 10-05-2014, 19:40   #43
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Originally Posted by category4jay View Post
Thorcat thats a great story. Congrats on your accomplishment. I guess the REAL question that we would like to know is what the boat was worth the day you dropped her in the pond? Comparing that value to the $800,000 cost would shed a lot of light on this subject.
Cheers
I can give you my example. The boat cost $200k Au to build (+4 years)

It was surveyed for insurance, and valued at $450k. It's now 4 1/2 years since launch, and is still valued in the high $300's.
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Old 12-05-2014, 04:00   #44
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

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Originally Posted by category4jay View Post
Thorcat thats a great story. Congrats on your accomplishment. I guess the REAL question that we would like to know is what the boat was worth the day you dropped her in the pond? Comparing that value to the $800,000 cost would shed a lot of light on this subject.
Cheers
Schionning Wilderness 1620 Catamaran THOR - YouTube
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Old 12-05-2014, 04:08   #45
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Re: Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

Sorry about the quality of the pics ,i can find and post some better ones if anybody is interested.
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