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Old 20-04-2012, 09:52   #16
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

Private owner vs Charter
Have to break down the real cost.
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Old 20-04-2012, 10:16   #17
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

That's how it should be done... alot of assumptions regarding private owner there though...
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Old 20-04-2012, 10:42   #18
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Private owner vs Charter
Have to break down the real cost.
If you are comparing boats of the same age (5 years old), nothing is like new on the private boat. Those who own boats understand that the environment will break down most gear at the same rate wether it is being used or sitting in the marina. In some cases with engines sitting unused is worse than regular use with proper maintenance.
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Old 21-04-2012, 06:56   #19
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

In reality, private versus charter yachts are no different to rental cars versus private. The rentals have lots of dents, nicks and scratches, it's an un-avoidable given.
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Old 26-04-2012, 08:27   #20
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

Hey Capcook,
We just completed the same decision you're making. We decided to purchase a 4-cabin Leopard 46 out of Moorings charter service. With the large aft cabins, walk-around berths, and large heads with separate shower stalls in the 4-cabin version, I don't see what benefit you get from the "owner's version" to make it worth the huge extra $$. We plan to charter it out with another company in the BVI for several years until we're ready to cruise on it, so the 4-cabin layout comes in handy for that. When cruising, we can convert the forward cabin and head in our "owner's hull" to other purposes (storage, work room, washer/dryer, watermaker, etc). Send me a PM and I'll give you more details on how the purchase went and thoughts about dealing with the Moorings.
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Old 22-07-2012, 21:14   #21
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

We went through this same thought process on 45 -50 ft cat. We ended up with a Lagoon 470 that had been in charter, but then owned privately.

From the invoices we have access to, the last owners put in $140k. At least $25k more that we don't have invoices for.

This covered some fiberglass work, standing rigging, genset, water maker, new through-hulls, solar panels, dive compressor and more. None of this would have been done on a fresh from charter. We get the benefit of the charter stigma with owners TLC.

That being said, we will probably be in for an additional >$50k to finish getting her into tip top condition. For example sails are not long for this world (~$12k and up). The batteries are shot ($4k). Additional solar panels ~$5k.

The reason a charter cat is 200k less than owners version is the cost to make up the difference. Lagoons are a pretty liquid market, and this is basic economics. If this wasn't true, boatyards (who can do stuff a lot less expensively than you or I) would be hoovering up charter cats, converting them to owner quality and selling them on.

We had a property development business. Our cost to refurb a home was ~60% the cost to Joe public. Some of the skills transferred to the boat, but a hell of a lot didn't.

If you have experience with boat refurb, and your time is cheap, it may well be worth it. Otherwise, buy smaller, or spend more and enjoy the sailing.

(Age of the boat is also very important in this calculus also)


My $0.02

Tony
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Old 23-07-2012, 15:10   #22
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

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The reason a charter cat is 200k less than owners version is the cost to make up the difference. Lagoons are a pretty liquid market, and this is basic economics. If this wasn't true, boatyards (who can do stuff a lot less expensively than you or I) would be hoovering up charter cats, converting them to owner quality and selling them on.

Tony
Thanks Tony,

That is a very interesting point and makes sense... still, would you not have to replace a lot of those same things on a 4-6yo "Owners Version" too ?

I understand the wear and tear and I would guess the Genny is used more than normal on a Charter, but if you buy a used Owner's version than the water maker, sails, Genny etc are all used too albeit not as much as on a Charter version... perhaps better to at least get a good hull from the charter guys and add these other features brand new...

I am leaning towards the Charter version and fix it up as I go...

Cheers
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Old 23-07-2012, 19:51   #23
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

We are on our 2nd Leopard cat. Both were ex charter. I prefer it that way.Don't be fooled about "perfect " owner boats. They have issues hidden as well. We hit a reef on our previous boat and i am as careful and prudent as most. We are on a leopard 47 now. I pretty much stripped out the interrior , dumped it and fitted it with new gear. I replaced the standing, running rigging , new sails , stack pack, latest solar power ,New 7.6 genset , Spectra newport mark11 water maker , iridium openport , new AC's , underwater lights , led spreader lights , all new latest and greatest electronics, new shafts, folding props , upgraded refrigeration. New matress and saloon cushion covers , new faucets , electric heads , rocna, new chain....i could go on an on..I now have a near new boat at a lot less than a "owners" version, a boat that i can trust as i have done all the work myself. I want to know how to fix, whatever breaks, halfway across the pacific
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Old 23-07-2012, 20:07   #24
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

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We are on our 2nd Leopard cat. Both were ex charter. I prefer it that way.Don't be fooled about "perfect " owner boats. They have issues hidden as well. We hit a reef on our previous boat and i am as careful and prudent as most. We are on a leopard 47 now. I pretty much stripped out the interrior , dumped it and fitted it with new gear. I replaced the standing, running rigging , new sails , stack pack, latest solar power ,New 7.6 genset , Spectra newport mark11 water maker , iridium openport , new AC's , underwater lights , led spreader lights , all new latest and greatest electronics, new shafts, folding props , upgraded refrigeration. New matress and saloon cushion covers , new faucets , electric heads , rocna, new chain....i could go on an on..I now have a near new boat at a lot less than a "owners" version, a boat that i can trust as i have done all the work myself. I want to know how to fix, whatever breaks, halfway across the pacific

What do you set it cost you for all that? 100k ?

Did u buy it from moorings?

Sounds like what I have in mind.
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Old 24-07-2012, 09:52   #25
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

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Thanks Tony,

That is a very interesting point and makes sense... still, would you not have to replace a lot of those same things on a 4-6yo "Owners Version" too ?

I understand the wear and tear and I would guess the Genny is used more than normal on a Charter, but if you buy a used Owner's version than the water maker, sails, Genny etc are all used too albeit not as much as on a Charter version... perhaps better to at least get a good hull from the charter guys and add these other features brand new...

I am leaning towards the Charter version and fix it up as I go...

Cheers

You make a good point. There are owners boats out there that are worse than charter (which at least should have been maintained to a similar standard). However, I also saw boats that had been maintained in absolutely cherry condition with money no object and were being sold due to divorce / ill health (which I didn't buy because I didn't like those particular models).

We were lucky to find a charter + 1 private owner (which had the charter price break in it); we hadn't been looking for that kind of deal.

I think one of the biggest differences between the two is toys and early refurb. I've seen threads on this board from people buying new lagoons at the factory and they were planning to spend 150k+ on post factory upgrades that charter companies wouldn't. When you buy that boat you get the upgrades for a fraction of the new cost.

For our boat the list of post charter upgrades carried out in the last two years included:

Genset $15k installed
Dive compressor and tanks $14k installed
Fancy Electronics package $12K installed
Solar panels $8k installed
Fiberglass bimini with sliding hatch $15k installed
Watermaker $10k installed
New throughhulls $8k installed
New Standing rigging $12k

Doing this yourself with new gear is expensive (much cheaper the second time round when you don't make the same mistakes

My advice, find a good broker. Look at both charter and owner boats. Have a wide price range (+/-$100k at least) you tell them you want to look at. That way you get a really good idea of the market. In addition, people have stuff out there, but will take $100k less. We flew out to Fort Lauderdale a couple of times. You can easily look at 15 in a day.

Good luck and enjoy your boat when you get it!!

Tony

(currently in Grenada and heading to ABCs and Colombia)
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Old 24-07-2012, 11:16   #26
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

When are you looking to make the purchase?

One option you might want to look at is buying new, but buying a Moorings 3900. They are the owners version and 5 years down the road, at least 1/4 of it has been paid off by charter use if not more depending on how you finance and it's yours to sail away on in 5 years.

Might even be able to see if you can get a Leopard 46 owners version into the program. Only downside is the 5 year wait to set off sailing.
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Old 24-07-2012, 19:00   #27
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

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When are you looking to make the purchase?

One option you might want to look at is buying new, but buying a Moorings 3900. They are the owners version and 5 years down the road, at least 1/4 of it has been paid off by charter use if not more depending on how you finance and it's yours to sail away on in 5 years.

Might even be able to see if you can get a Leopard 46 owners version into the program. Only downside is the 5 year wait to set off sailing.
I have thought about that a good bit... but it doesn't look like a very good deal to me.... you pay the new price and in 5yrs or they also have 3yr programs... you have a 3-5yo X-Charter boat anyways.... You bear 100% of the capital and depreciation risk... in the end you can probably buy one on the open market the day you want it for even less than your balance coming out of Charter.... It would be at least close and you have no risk...

At any rate I want one in less than 3yrs and would buy it now if I could figure out a way to get it close enough to Atlanta Ga that I could work on it in the evenings and weekend (if not sail it)...

Cheers
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Old 24-07-2012, 19:07   #28
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

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I have thought about that a good bit... but it doesn't look like a very good deal to me.... you pay the new price and in 5yrs or they also have 3yr programs... you have a 3-5yo X-Charter boat anyways.... You bear 100% of the capital and depreciation risk... in the end you can probably buy one on the open market the day you want it for even less than your balance coming out of Charter.... It would be at least close and you have no risk...

At any rate I want one in less than 3yrs and would buy it now if I could figure out a way to get it close enough to Atlanta Ga that I could work on it in the evenings and weekend (if not sail it)...

Cheers
While that is true, depending on the financing and deals, you still get a decent portion of the boat paid off - could be as much as 1/3 of it. Take 1/3 off the price and there is the extra depreciation.

But in the end, the depreciation doesn't have matter if the goal is to take the boat and use it. I think a charter boat that you are involved in throughout the program and one you then use and refit as needed and maintain can still maintain its value when you go to sell it after a few years of cruising.

There's also the time you get to use it as well to consider too. Not sure how well a 3 year program would work though for you.
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Old 24-07-2012, 21:14   #29
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

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I am leaning towards the Charter version and fix it up as I go...

Cheers
A lot of Moorings 46's are operated as crewed boats and don't suffer the same abuse as those with rookies at the helm. These crewed boats also get better and quicker attention to issues as they arise because the staff on board make sure things get done right. As far as ex-charter is concerned typically these crewed boats are in good shape.

Dave L38 #38
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Old 25-07-2012, 08:13   #30
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Re: Pros Cons Charter vs Non-Chartered

We looked very hard at the option of placing a boat with Sunsail during the Annapolis Boat Show in 2010. Almost went for their "boat show special". After coming home and running a lot of numbers, our conclusion was that it only makes sense if you can use it 4-5 weeks or more annually and save the charter cost. I don't get that much vacation time annually. The depreciation hit from new to 5-year old was about the same or slightly more than the amount covered by the monthly payments. We're now in the process of buying a 2009 R&C 46, after it's already taken a large depreciation hit. Also, buying used instead of new, we can buy a lot bigger boat. The one in Annapolis we were considering was the R&C 38. I'm not concerned about cosmetic wear & tear from charters (scuffs and dings). It's worth it to me to have the boat we want to live on.

Rob
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