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Old 22-11-2011, 10:38   #16
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

What would the sketches of the boat prior to build be called? the layout, map, design, plan? I was looking for some different ones but didnt know how to search for them
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Old 22-11-2011, 10:40   #17
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

boat plans or drawings
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Old 22-11-2011, 10:41   #18
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

OK, i didt know what the correct term used was
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Old 22-11-2011, 10:42   #19
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

thanks
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Old 22-11-2011, 13:32   #20
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

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thanks

Most designers have study plans generally at a low cost. say $20- $50.
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Old 23-11-2011, 15:08   #21
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

Guysnell,

I've read your posts here and the other thread you started "sailing alone" where you commented in the #16 post about attending Kingspoint. I also took note of your comment of certain earnings after Kingspoint. First, I need to ask, have you been accepted to Kingspoint? At 16, I think not. Are your current grades consistant with the entry requirements of Kingspoint? And also, unlike me graduating from CMA, you won't have $50K in student loans, but unless you are at the top of your class, recruiters are not going to be knocking your door down. I gave you a thoughtful response on that thread (#46) that you ignored, but gainful employment after any maritime academy graduation might be the Military Sealift Command, and that doesn't pay very well. You are aware that the $160K a year (one month on, one off) will only happen after you have upgraded from 3rd Mate Unlimited Tonnage to Master AND only on US flagged vessels, which might make up 5% of total commercial shipping? And I'm sure you are aware the only ships that need to sail under a US flag are running from one US port to another US port, like Matson (West Coast to Hawaii), Great Lakes shipping, Mississippi River, PNW ferries, well you get the idea.

I do wish you the best, and hope this isn't just a pipe dream, but I know first hand what it took to get into a maritime academy. After being accepted, you will have to work hard not being part of the 75% that were unable to graduate WITH a license. That is why in post #46 I cautioned you about proper management of your time and any extra-curricular activities. I did make time for CMA's sailing program, but that was about it for me. BTW, I graduated 3rd in my class and only had a few recruiters court me.
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Old 24-11-2011, 23:09   #22
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

I didn't mean to kill the thread. I tried to put myself in guysnell's shoes and had this forum been around when I was trying to get into CMA, and I came across an academy grad, I would have been bending his ear with questions.
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Old 30-12-2011, 06:34   #23
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

accepting old cats to be often better built than new ones, like my Catalac10m entire fibre hull of a thickness i havent seen on any after 90ties hull. The design issue, a member mentioned that 25 years ago design was rather for better seaboat than condomino for the marina as now often case. The creature comforts issue, i still bless myself for having got cat with one head, imagine having to maintain 4 heads for your four ensuites. The equipment issue, yachts once launched start suffering, ie the electronics can only last as long as their circuits stay undamaged by corrosive forces at work, the seals, gaskets, woodwork, stainless steel suffer much and need professional maintenance from launch.

The rigging will need replacing after 10 years normally, sails need replacing, this goes on, it is obvious that older cats will have had to renew rigging, engnes, galley stove, autopilot and its hydraulics, etc so often a older design is better deal when the refitting is recent so one can sail few years wihout to great expenses.

I got my catalac10m with 2 year old rigging new mast, boom, spinnaker pole, sails, stays. It also had new Raymarine ST6000 and other ST40 series seatalk Raymarine instruments, wind, depth, speed. A good radar with hig professionally mounted dome, SSB radio, VHF radio topping the cake. On top of the catalac built strength reputation this is what made me decide to buy it. So the old, new cat comparison has much more to it than compare as from factory cat. News for those who dont have boat yet, better realize that the yachting enjoyment can be undone by the every trip repair jobs that pop up most unexpected moments. Believe it or not i had fewer maintenance issues than a neightbour with a new 46 leopard whose generator packed up, whose washing machine didnt want to work of standard inverter, whose engine gaskets on both Yanmar engines packed up after few hours running, who really taught he could arrive inCape town, buy the yacht, get Captain to sail it, do paperwork and go. He left two months late. that is not to say the yacht wasnt great, i wish to dream, but that the more complex, the more energy guzzling creature comfort, the more headaches as those gadgets oftenn not designed for onboard use like to play up soon, cliche we know: happiest day for boat owner is the day he sells it
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Old 30-12-2011, 15:11   #24
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

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Originally Posted by quirimbas View Post
accepting old cats to be often better built than new ones, like my Catalac10m entire fibre hull of a thickness i havent seen on any after 90ties hull. The design issue, a member mentioned that 25 years ago design was rather for better seaboat than condomino for the marina as now often case. The creature comforts issue, i still bless myself for having got cat with one head, imagine having to maintain 4 heads for your four ensuites. The equipment issue, yachts once launched start suffering, ie the electronics can only last as long as their circuits stay undamaged by corrosive forces at work, the seals, gaskets, woodwork, stainless steel suffer much and need professional maintenance from launch.

The rigging will need replacing after 10 years normally, sails need replacing, this goes on, it is obvious that older cats will have had to renew rigging, engnes, galley stove, autopilot and its hydraulics, etc so often a older design is better deal when the refitting is recent so one can sail few years wihout to great expenses.

I got my catalac10m with 2 year old rigging new mast, boom, spinnaker pole, sails, stays. It also had new Raymarine ST6000 and other ST40 series seatalk Raymarine instruments, wind, depth, speed. A good radar with hig professionally mounted dome, SSB radio, VHF radio topping the cake. On top of the catalac built strength reputation this is what made me decide to buy it. So the old, new cat comparison has much more to it than compare as from factory cat. News for those who dont have boat yet, better realize that the yachting enjoyment can be undone by the every trip repair jobs that pop up most unexpected moments. Believe it or not i had fewer maintenance issues than a neightbour with a new 46 leopard whose generator packed up, whose washing machine didnt want to work of standard inverter, whose engine gaskets on both Yanmar engines packed up after few hours running, who really taught he could arrive inCape town, buy the yacht, get Captain to sail it, do paperwork and go. He left two months late. that is not to say the yacht wasnt great, i wish to dream, but that the more complex, the more energy guzzling creature comfort, the more headaches as those gadgets oftenn not designed for onboard use like to play up soon, cliche we know: happiest day for boat owner is the day he sells it
Quirimbas,

You seem to make the point that older, more heavily constructed cats are more seaworthy and have less maintaince issues than modern designs such as the leopard 46.

I cannot agree. I can agree that a simple vessel with minimal systems will have less to go wrong and maintain.

I am not sure when the Catalac 10m was designed (30yrs ago at least???) and I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with that design however there have been great advances in design, materials, sails, systems in that time.

A modern design with similar minimal systems may well be as strong, faster, as seaworthy(likely improved) and less maintaince (composite chainplates for example) than an older design.

Chances are that it will cost more than a Catalac to build but them with building today the biggest cost is labour man hours is somewhat different today than when your vessel was built.

I just can't accept your argument that old cats are often better built than new ones. Some perhaps but certainly not generally.

Cheers
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Old 31-12-2011, 01:58   #25
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

indeed it is more complex than old is better built. Certainly there are the new built cats that are strongly built, but they carry very high price tag. The newer design is ofeten for speed, something i cant understand being very important for a cruiser unless to run off in front of bad weather. For speed new designs had to be lighter, built lighter, most cats have non-cored hull below waterline and cored above, certainly less strong than my Catalac, more difficult to repair damage to the hull. BUT i would love some of the new designs, i love the Mantas, the Catanas, the Outremer, the Neel tri... if only i could afford.... The issue is old vs new in the sense of affordability and not necessary getting better yacht and more reliability because its new.
I have this thing with cleats and toerails, being old ex-monohuller, a strategically placed bow or stern cleat for me has to be the strongest point on any yacht, on my catalac there are 8 huge proper chainplated horn cleats which in combination with my toerail also oversized make Catalac look like it is prepared for all tie up situations. I cant help noticing the cleats first (ofcourse toerails are very unsexy and left off all modern cat designs) now take the worst offender the Jaguar 36, the cleats are for 8mm lines only if you want to proper knot it, then check the minuscul chainplate, and the fact that the cleats are mounted on the side off the rounded hull, first serious force applied and they will pull clean out, Maxim 380 similar set up, other owners of cats on this forum can maybe inform us about their cleats.
So I have nothing against new design cats, amzing things are happening, but as a cruiser i dont want a carbon mast, very rounded hulls that give no foothold, huge trampolines, anchors that are not at located the bow, imagine the chafe and friction with the hulls, i dont want 4 heads,
i also dont want extremely complicated rigging issues like having to adjust backstay, no electric winches, electric roller furling main or head sails, daggerboards rather integral keeled hull which allow cat to dry out without hull damage issues, twin helms, cable steering, under powered engines for size of the craft, lack of spinaker pole, lack of jib tracks, leading the main halyards to the cockpit and finding myself having to go to the mast anyway to assist main going up or down or getting caught in the lazy jack pack, lack of mast steps, electronics that are linked such that if one breaks down entire system is down, i dont want high maintenance watermaker which makes for more tru hull inlets of seawater prone to sea water ingress, lots of tru hull water inlets, small capacity freshwater tanks, unprotected helm, limited storage for ground tackle, less than three anchors, poor davits for tender so that in bad weather become problematic, inflatable dinghy, fancy fridge or freezers, no proper engine battery charging, no inverter, .....no fancy stays setup so my main boom cant swing out properly for downwind sailing, no innerstay for stormjib to be hanked onto, no asymmetric spinaker with recover sock,
it is possible to have all the creature comforts without after each sailing trip having to spend all your time having to fix things, search parts,
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Old 31-12-2011, 03:11   #26
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

For a hundred k you should get a real cruising cat, the Prout 37ft Snow Goose.
I've seen these fully equipped for long range cruising cheaper than that. Totally sea worthy, seat twelve for lunch, 6 berth plus 2 or even 4 in the saloon berths. For long range one on watch, one resting is adequate with experience. My bro soloed from the Seychelles to Madagascar in his. Then raced it to Durban, second overall to a 64ft mono with two crew on board.
He saw 200 miles a day quite often but described 8kts as being the cruising speed, otherwise it's a roller coaster ride dropping off the top of each wave.
It's not a new design, but there are very few problems with osmosis, and a thorough overhaul and modern plastic sails will make her a very effective cruiser. You will need the spare budget if you intend to sail into your 80's like many do on these wonderful boats.
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Old 31-12-2011, 03:22   #27
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

I've just read through Quirimbas comments, all apply to the old Prouts and they make a lot of sense. Certainly my little Prout always felt very safe in the cockpit, was simple to sail (I'd not sailed before I bought it, just read a lot) yet it was always a joy to take it out. f6 was an easy ride, working to windward was OK, but would be improved with new shiny non-stretch sails (7 yr life I'm told).
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Old 31-12-2011, 04:07   #28
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

Welcome aboard quirimbas, nice to see another Catalac owner here.

Catalacs are one of the best built boats in the world. Surveyors have been known to refer to Catalacs as the Hinckley of Cruising Catamarans (for those of you who aren't familiar with the term ...it's not an insignificant compliment). With their short rigs, they aren't particularly fast boats but they have lots of room, they're safe, are well thought out designs and are quality boats which are built like battleships. One made it through the heart of the Queen's Birthday Storm without damage or loss of life.

Because Catalacs are an older design, many folks pay them little attention, yet you'll be hard pressed to find a Catalac owner who is not happy with his boat.
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Old 31-12-2011, 07:11   #29
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

To me a performance cat isn't about outrunning a storm it's about being able to sail in light air while everyone else is motoring.
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Old 31-12-2011, 08:05   #30
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Re: Pros and Cons Between a New and Old Catamaran

The otherway is to use the stability of a Cat to fly a spinaker.
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