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Old 06-04-2016, 08:55   #16
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Re: Project together

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Originally Posted by andreavanduyn View Post
Thanks guys ; but why Chris White?

Does he have similar tri's designed already?

Juniper or Hammerhead.;; what are these?

No one has a similar design to the Neel. It is really groundbreaking to build a bridgedeck trimaran like this. So if it's what you are after, for now at least, it's either a Neel or nothing.

Chris White is probably the best known designer of large cruising trimarans, with the Hammerhead and Juniper being the best known >50' designs of his. The problem is that between the two designs there are only five boats floating so they are rare, and tend to go quick when they hit the market (there is currently a Juniper for sale).

The other major designer is a guy named Nigel Irens who is a very famous ORMA's trimaran designer (he also did a few Gunboats). Who has a few large cruising trimarans around the world. Again tho there simply aren't that many of them out there, but Paradox (a ORMA derived cruiser) is currently up for sale.
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Old 06-04-2016, 09:12   #17
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Re: Project together

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No one has a similar design to the Neel. It is really groundbreaking to build a bridgedeck trimaran like this...
Not saying in this day and age that I'd build one, but the big Cross (46'+) and Horstmann (45'+) tris from the 70's came pretty close. Cabin space in all three hulls, interior passages from main hull to floats, etc. Not as modern looking as the Neel, and not nearly as much glass/window, but at the core pretty similar. All of them (Neel included) look a bit like an apartment block on water and aren't to my taste, but if that's what you want...
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Old 06-04-2016, 09:27   #18
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Re: Project together

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Not saying in this day and age that I'd build one, but the big Cross (46'+) and Horstmann (45'+) tris from the 70's came pretty close. Cabin space in all three hulls, interior passages from main hull to floats, etc. Not as modern looking as the Neel, and not nearly as much glass/window, but at the core pretty similar. All of them (Neel included) look a bit like an apartment block on water and aren't to my taste, but if that's what you want...
Thanks for the correction. I discounted them because the OP indicated a preference for a performance boat. And the Cross and Horstmann tri's are not known for having a turn of speed. The Cross 46 for instance is probably slower around a course than a J-35, even on a reach a C-46 with a modified larger rig in 10-15 only hits 7-8kn of boat speed.

The Neel is at least trying to be a performance cruiser. I haven't heard any good numbers yet on how well she actually performs, but she's making an honest attempt.
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Old 06-04-2016, 11:30   #19
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Re: Project together

It was actually more the notion that a bridgedeck accommodation design was new rather than a suggestion to build one.

But, when you look at it the Neel 45 isn't that far removed from a Cross 46 from a naval architectural design perspective. The hull shapes, displacements, and fineness ratios aren't that radically different. What changed in the Neel is mostly the result of updates in technology, building materials, and construction techniques (and yes, those are massive changes):
  1. The Neel is about 2 tons lighter for the same size. That's not because Norm wanted a heavy boat, but rather because the materials and construction can make the boat stronger for that much less weight. About a 25% reduction.
  2. The Neel has an advantage of about 1m in beam. Norm designed to about a 60% beam/length ratio up to 40'. At that point he kept pretty much a fixed beam of 24-25' (for his cruising designs) because the materials he was working with limited the crossbeams. The Neel sits at about 60% actual, which is where the Cross 46 would be with a more modern beam design.
  3. The Neel has about 30% more sail area. This, too, is a result of building materials. And, is directly tied to the beam strength above, the upper shrouds add a whole lot of load to the beams.

From what I've seen the Neel could easily run circles around a Cross 46 (for that matter our 40 can do that). I admire that they are building a cruising trimaran for the market, and are taking advantage of most of the available modern building techniques. I just don't see the design as being a radical departure from what has come before. More an iteration.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:07   #20
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Re: Project together

Good to read and what would happen if we build a tri alike Neel 45 in CARBON?

Here in the East of Europe this is quite accepted now as Russell Coutts builts his 44' here next door........

THEN a 40' would be abel to still hit 18 knots despite loaded with cruising gear in our mind ......would it not?
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Old 06-04-2016, 19:25   #21
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Re: Project together

I am not a NA, but my guess is that switching to carbon would preclude building the NEEL in carbon. Carbon is a lot stiffer and stronger, so you don't need as thick a laminate stack which saves stack thickness, which saves weight. Secondly carbon is lighter, which also saves weight.

All this reduced weight means you would have three options...

1) built it as is and have tonns(?) of additional carrying capacity
2) redesign the hulls to take advantage of the reduced dry weight
3) a little of both.

At a minimum you would want to redesign the laminate stack to take advantage of the stiffness/strength increase of switching to carbon. I would also want to redesign the hulls themselves to take advantage of the reduces weight. All in all you would have a stronger, stiffer, lighter, and faster boat than the Neel... At a very rough guess of $100,000 more in build price.
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Old 06-04-2016, 19:59   #22
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Re: Project together

And even with all that, 18 knots on a 45' boat is going to be a tough stretch. Not for a maximum speed, but for anything like an extended run. Look at Paradox as an example, a 60' modified racing design. She reportedly does 20 fast cruising, with a flat out speed of 30, but her daily runs are 300-350, or 12-14 knots. At 45', even with modern 'canvas' and construction I think you'll be hard pressed to see much more than 12-14 on an extended basis for a cruising boat with the amenities (unless you go for foils)
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Old 07-04-2016, 02:43   #23
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Re: Project together

As a cruiser just having sold my 50' ketch I must say for me 14 knots is fast......and as average speed very satisfying.

Who wants more than such speed with a top of 18 ; dream scenario is it not for a cruiser?
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Old 07-04-2016, 04:16   #24
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Re: Project together

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Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
...I think you'll be hard pressed to see much more than 12-14 on an extended basis for a cruising boat with the amenities (unless you go for foils)
Few more numbers reading ARC 2015 report:
Distance 2,680 nm
Neel-45, "La Caravelle"
Time at sea: 319 hrs
Average speed: 8.4 kn
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Old 07-04-2016, 05:35   #25
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Re: Project together

If space and comfort are the two most important qualities, then you may want to consider having an updated Searunner (40+') built; I doubt you'll find one for sale. They were known for space, sea kindliness and highly regarded among owners. An older one looks like this: Searunner 40, 1979, Offshore Cruising Trimaran, Seattle, Washington, Sailing Texas

Another designer you might consult with (on the highest pecking order!) would be John Shuttleworth, although I'm not sure he's handling small projects anymore! ;-)

Ian Farrier would be another person high on my list.

Best regards...
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Old 07-04-2016, 06:09   #26
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Re: Project together

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Dear all,

My husband and I are having the urge to leave the shores but build our own dream yacht after experiencing mono's from 40' upwards.

We like to share your advise in how to get this project on the water; input welcome from all experienced mono and cat sailors/racers.

Our initial idea is a trimaran; not a cat. Having raced cats unto and including the worlds for 18', I am desperate to finally own and enjoy a fast yacht but due to our age also comfortable and safe. The cat is not such yacht; pitching and capsizing being an issue if you can buy one that is really fast and designed for speed......few brands come to mind.

The Trimaran has captured our minds due to the success of the 'Neel 45' despite apparently some poor (French) construction work......

Who as owner of a mono or cat with family feeling and kids or not can help us to design the 'ultimate' fast trimaran for us as a couple with visitors or a couple that visits for long term fun on board.....ps* we are near retiring age.....

**please leave the comments of capsized and other 'funny' examples of trimarans; not interested in smart comments with negative frequencies.

Find enclosed the initial thoughts of us on paper.

feel free to shoot
Building a yacht is a great way to not go sailing.

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Old 07-04-2016, 06:16   #27
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Re: Project together

Results ARC 2015

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...0Multihull.pdf

Outremer 51 way behind the Neel 45'.........as is the other one.
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Old 07-04-2016, 23:50   #28
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Re: Project together

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Results ARC 2015

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...0Multihull.pdf

Outremer 51 way behind the Neel 45'.........as is the other one.
I think you're a bit too fixated on the ARC results as evidence of the performance of the Neel. I'm not saying it's not a quick boat, I have no experience of it, I'm challenging your use of the ARC results.

The ARC is a rally for cruisers. It's not a proper race and, as Dockhead has more eloquently pointed out in your monohull thread, there's plenty of examples of information that has come out that have skewed the results. His example of the large Moody that was stripped out raced hard by a crack crew being a perfect example. With respect to your example, How was the Outremer 51 loaded and sailed? By how many crew and were they racers..? What sails does it have/use? Of course the same questions need to be posed for the Neel as well. Perhaps they were racing hard because they were concerned their bilge pump would fail and they'd sink (That's a joke btw) There is simply not enough information provided in the ARC results to make the conclusions you have.

I'd very much like to see an 'empty' Outremer 51 Vs an empty Neel around a decent course in a proper race with appropriate sails and proper sailors on board both. My money would be on the Outremer but it would be a great race. And whilst the original Outie's were performance cruisers I think the modern ones are a bit fat to be put in the same category. In my opinion the best performance cruisers with two hulls out there today are Schionning designs.

I'd also like to understand your reasoning behind saying that Catamarans are unsafe. You mentioned your small cat racing experience and flipping those and also pitchpoling but I'm not following your extrapolation to decent size cruising cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreavanduyn View Post
Our initial idea is a trimaran; not a cat. Having raced cats unto and including the worlds for 18', I am desperate to finally own and enjoy a fast yacht but due to our age also comfortable and safe. The cat is not such yacht; pitching and capsizing being an issue if you can buy one that is really fast and designed for speed......few brands come to mind.
Cruising catamarans are not the super twitchy 18' racing cats that you have experience on. Even the larger, performance oriented cruising designs are not as twitchy as the 18' cats you've raced. I don't understand this line of reasoning when you have every option available to you to slow the boat down in normal conditions from reefing the main, furling the headsail or hoisting a smaller headsail. In heavy conditions you can go to bare poles and even launch a drogue or a parachute anchor to really slow and practically stop the cat. It is very rare indeed, I would guess a rarer event than a mono sinking after a roll or sinking after a keel fell off, that a catamaran is capsized from wave action alone. If you take the sails down you've pretty much nullified your risk of being capsized from too strong a wind - which has been the cause of the vast majority of catamaran capsizes. Take Anna, for example. They didn't think the squall was any different to ones they'd experienced previously and didn't get enough sail down and got smashed. If a mono sailor in the same situation with the same reported wind speeds left too much canvas up they'd have been knocked down as well and maybe broken a few bones, done further damage - who knows. It's all speculation. The point being, they should have gotten their sails down and, if they did, they'd have been able to ride it out. That's true of any well found boat with any number of hulls, in my opinion.

If you set the sails according to the conditions, you'll be fine. If you're going to sail on the edge of the performance envelope then you accept those risks but then also, if you go over, the fault lies with the skipper and not the boat.
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Old 07-04-2016, 23:53   #29
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Re: Project together

Would the capsizing of Anna make me turn down the offer of a Chris White Atlantic 57? Hell no, I'd cut my left one off to have one! They are a great boat.
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Old 08-04-2016, 01:55   #30
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Re: Project together

How many years are you allowing before you launch? Design/build process could take a while. Building from a plan set would shorten things, as would building in a well founded shop affiliated with the designer. Want to make sure the shop will not go under financially while your boat is in progress. Maybe search about for the above while searching for a used boat. A compromise may be a good used boat from a credible designer who can then reconfigure the cabin area to better suit your needs. Semi-custom approach. So, how soon do you want to be in the water?
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