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Old 03-07-2008, 13:29   #151
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Okay, hey tell him to look on google for a 435 Isaw a few for around $465,000 =)
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:13   #152
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in the water price including all the cruising stuff, water makers etc etc price of a 47 foot Leopard is about $725k USA.

I think the Privilege 495 is way past that - so why are you moving towards that boat with such currency bargains around as the Leopard?
I cannot talk about boats at that level as I dont have access to that level of finance. I was looking at the 40ft , and do not like the layout of the Leopard, they also have more of a reputation for bridgedeck slammming.

I like the Privilege 395 (although the 435 is very nice as well), but expect that finance may direct me more towards a 39.
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Old 05-07-2008, 17:13   #153
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I cannot talk about boats at that level as I dont have access to that level of finance. I was looking at the 40ft , and do not like the layout of the Leopard, they also have more of a reputation for bridgedeck slammming.

I like the Privilege 395 (although the 435 is very nice as well), but expect that finance may direct me more towards a 39.
Talbot... The old Priv 37 is actually very similar to the 395 but of course quite a bit cheaper. 100k will get you a good one. Great layout also the year I did the ARC in my 435 a 37 took just 1 day longer so reasonable performance.
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Old 05-07-2008, 17:26   #154
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Speed

What speed did you make for the Arc in the 435?
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Old 05-07-2008, 23:28   #155
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Mike,

I have looked at the 37 and recognised that the 395 is closer in concept than the 39, however, it only has one heads, and I like the option of two for thecomfort of guests.

Gludy,

Crossing the Atlantic is only about speed if your pockets are bottomless you have a substantial crew, and you like a high risk factor. For me, I prefer the more cautious approach that preserves the sails, has a much reduced risk, and the ability to sleep at night.

Dont forget that the basic concept of sailing, is not the getting from A to B in the shortest possible time, but in the enjoyment of the actual journey.
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:51   #156
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Speed

Talbot
If I was going for pure speed I would go for a Gunboat.
In practice its all a compromise.

I do not know if a boat averaging 10 knots would be less comfortable or more dangerous than a boat averaging 8 knots or 7 knots. If I can have more speed whilst still having comfort and keeping the risk factor OK then i would have the speed. If that speed compromised comfort or safety too much then I would not have the speed.

I went away from fast planing power boats doing 30 knots and chose power boat cruising at 9 knots because the latter was much more comfortable and I could enjoy the journey.

Maybe a light boat get thrown around more in heavy weather - on the other hand maybe it does not dig in as much and is safer ....... its very difficult to tell with my lack of experience in the matter.

I know my powerboats but I am having to learn about sailing cats from scratch.
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Old 06-07-2008, 11:44   #157
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There are some benefits for the speed -

shorter passage times

ability to get out of the way of bad weather

However, when sh1t happens and you are caught out by bad weather, I would much rather be in a cat built for strength and carrying capacity than speed.

The biggest danger on a cat is not capsize, but a pitchpole, caused by excessive speed down the back of a wave, and burying the bow. At night you can easily be lulled into a false sense of security and not reef when necessary, or take more drastic measures such as a drogue, because all seems well, but what is the big rush. Push on hard and gear breaks, the ride is uncomfortable, and the risk increases significantly.

Plus the faster boats are not such good load carriers, so you have to compromise on home comforts.

As has been said by others, you can compensate by going larger with the same accomodation, but that has problems of berthing and handling short handed as well. IMHO 43 ft is the max I would consider for a crew of two + occassional visitors.
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Old 06-07-2008, 12:35   #158
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Conclusions so far

I have so far pretty well settled on some opinions.

1. Max boat length for 2 is 50 foot providing the boat is designed for sailing short handed.

2. 90 per cent of the time when on board you are not sailing so creature comforts are important.

3. Speed is nice and offers safety to run from bad weather but it has to be balanced against the home comforts of point 2.

I am told two things about cat weight and rough weather.
1. I am told a light cat (but strong) cat is better because it floats high and does not dig its bows in.
2. I am told that a heavy cat is better because it handles better in rough weather.

Which is right?
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Old 06-07-2008, 12:40   #159
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People who are going for speed need to select their catamarans well. When we sailed to New Zealand, we met three fast sailing catamarans that had bridgedeck damage that was associated with high speed sailing in rough weather.

Many production catamarans can be sailed at high speeds in smooth water and do just fine. But take the same cats and sail them in storms at high speeds, and you create a demolition derby. There's is just too much energy for them to safely dissipate when sailing at high speeds, and the structures aren't designed to handle and safely dissipate that amount of energy. Stuff breaks, and when you get to New Zealand, it's time to make structural repairs.

One of the things I liked about our Privilege 39 was that it had robust construction, and we always felt safe in winds to fifty knots. But if I had sailed like a bat out of hell in rough conditions, maybe it would have been a different story.
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Old 06-07-2008, 13:11   #160
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Cats and rough weather

I think you are pretty spot on with the general points you make.
As I understand it, in rough weather you have to sail slow or even heave to because you have to reduce the kinetic energy in your boat 0- sometimes to almost zero and just be there not fighting the seas or bashing against them - hence low speed is critical.

However having a fast cat does not mean that you should go fast in heavy weather - or does it?

Would I be right is saying that the idea would be to go fast or rather faster in the lighter weather accepting that in heavy weather you have no chocie but to heave to or even put out a parachute?
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Old 06-07-2008, 14:55   #161
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I dont think you will get a consensus of opinion on this one. Most UK design or derivatives have always been built heavy with a smaller sail plan than required for respectable work in light winds, but these are designed for bad weather.

Australian Cats are normally built light and fast, due to long distances between ports and relatively decent winds in the better sailing areas - I know that southern oceans and particularly bass strait can be anything but flat, but the concept is still valid.

At the end of the day, if you have a decent crew who know what they are doing , then a light cat has advantages. but imho if you are short handed, the ability to sit with confidence in the strength of your craft in really bad conditions is the telling argument. I am prepared to accept poorer light wind sailing conditions as a trade off to reducing the risk in bad weather.

At the end of the day, it is your call, bearing in mind the intended sailing area, your own and crew's experience levels, and attitude to risk
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Old 06-07-2008, 15:05   #162
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I would agree

" I am prepared to accept poorer light wind sailing conditions as a trade off to reducing the risk in bad weather."

That would also be my opinion as well but I am trying to establish if there is indeed a trade off. Is it not just a matter of reefing down more with the lighter cat or putting up a stormsail?

In other words I cannot make sense of the actual trade off but would always go on the side of safety and comfort if there was a trade off..
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Old 06-07-2008, 15:14   #163
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An aquaintance of mine in a catalac lost his rudders due to metal fatique and was taken in tow by a lifeboat. with no sails, just the mast, the cat overtook the lifeboat!

thus a cat in strong winds is very quick on acceleration. read maxing out's web site about his bad weather preps and experience - lots of good data and a very sensible long term cruising approach.
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Old 06-07-2008, 15:57   #164
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Interesting

Thats very interesting - so it could be difficult to slow down a light cat in rough weather ....... that is a point I have to follow up.

I will do the reading you suggest. Thank you.
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Old 06-07-2008, 17:28   #165
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I've always wondered about the concept of how you can use a catamaran's speed to escape bad weather.

Intense low pressure areas have a circulation that draws you in toward the center of the low. It would be unwise to run with a low and let it pull you into it's center. If you are racing, then staying with a low on its favorable side will give you a boost toward the finish line. If you are cruising, staying with the low will give you many days of bad weather. You will be going fast in miserable conditions, and if you don't change your strategy, things won't get better anytime soon.

In cruising with a shorthanded crew, running with a low can get you into major strife. Lows have a mind of their own, and their center can deviate north or south very quickly. Sometimes the center of the low breaks up and reforms in another location. I have seen it happen both ways. (Check out historical storm tracks on the internet)

I would never purposefully run fast with an intense low.

Lows that are moving at 15 knots will travel 375 nautical miles in a day. If I hold position with a sea anchor or slow down with a drogue, the worst of the low will blow by me in about twenty-four hours. I stay away from lows, and if one of them is heading toward me, I deviate my course 90 degrees away from the predicted path, and in the direction of the non-dangerous semicircle if at all possible.

When I sailed across the Atlantic, and there were several intense lows and tropical storms to north, I took a southerly route, and my plan was to head south for the doldrums if anything headed my way. I had plenty of fuel if there wasn't enough wind.

Even if I was on the fastest cruising cat in the world, I would still do my utmost to stay away from lows. The seas are always talking to you, telling you about the weather that's heading your way. You don't need to be a member of the genius club to read the swells and wind shifts to be able to formulate a strategy that will keep you out of harms way.

If you have common sense, you don't need a fast cat to safely sail around the world. Fast is fun, fast is exciting, but sometimes fast isn't smart. If you are lucky enough to have a fast cat, count your blessings and enjoy the ride. But don't rely on high speeds to keep you safe. Only your brain with a good dose of common sense will tell you the best and safest speed for your cat. When all hell breaks lose, the time for speed is over, and its time to select a defensive posture that is appropriate for the design of your cat. For some multihulls it's a drogue, and for others it's a parachute sea anchor.

If you rely only on high speed to protect you offshore, and if you don't know how to use a parachute sea anchor or drogue, you may get hurt.

I sum it up like this. I rely on the speed of my catamaran to protect me offshore. Sometimes I select a speed of zero knots, sometimes four knots, and sometimes ten knots. The conditions that I am in offshore determine the amount of speed I select. Once I decide on the speed, it's easy to know what I need to do. Deploy a parachute sea anchor, put out a drogue, reef the sails or pile on more sail.

Fast is good, but fast won't keep you safe in a storm. Fast is only one component of storm management, one contingency that you can use in severe weather. Go fast when you can, when you are sure that it will put you in a better position. But even more important, know how to control your speed, because if you control your speed, you push the odds for survival in your favor, and you will probably be safe.
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