Poor construction

[Cotemar]

It gets even BETTER.

Boats sold in the U.S. do not have to be CE rated, but rather, must only meet a few U.S. Coast Guard regulations which address required safety items such as PFDs and flares, carrying capacity for boats under 26’ and level flotation if swamped for boats 20’ and under.

America’s version of CE Standards and Recommendations have been promulgated by the American Boat and Yacht Council -- but they are strictly voluntary. Most critically, there are no ABYC design categories to differentiate between boats of different capabilities, a crucial distinction for CE ratings and American NMMA certification, which itself only requires about 70% of the ABYC recommended standards. While most quality U.S. builders follow the ABYC standards and many exceed those required by the NMMA, they are not mandatory as the CE standards are in Europe.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

It gets even BETTER.

Boats sold in the U.S. do not have to be CE rated, but rather, must only meet a few U.S. Coast Guard regulations which address required safety items such as PFDs and flares, carrying capacity for boats under 26’ and level flotation if swamped for boats 20’ and under.

Hmmm, better to have no regulations and have it buyer beware, or better to have regulations that mean nothing yet make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside when you buy?


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[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

Yet a category A certified boat can have brass thruhulls with a life expectancy of 5 years? Something wrong there.

They don't have a life expectancy of 5 years. If the boat will sink do to that in 5 years the boat builder is liable and that is a completely different matter.

I don't know anybody that change through hulls of new boats after 5 years. Normally they should be changed between 10 and 15 years but should be checked thoroughly once a year after the initial 5 years.

[SV DestinyAscen]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

It gets even BETTER.

Boats sold in the U.S. do not have to be CE rated, but rather, must only meet a few U.S. Coast Guard regulations which address required safety items such as PFDs and flares, carrying capacity for boats under 26’ and level flotation if swamped for boats 20’ and under.

America’s version of CE Standards and Recommendations have been promulgated by the American Boat and Yacht Council -- but they are strictly voluntary. Most critically, there are no ABYC design categories to differentiate between boats of different capabilities, a crucial distinction for CE ratings and American NMMA certification, which itself only requires about 70% of the ABYC recommended standards. While most quality U.S. builders follow the ABYC standards and many exceed those required by the NMMA, they are not mandatory as the CE standards are in Europe.

But the US has two features that make new boats no less well equipped. 1) product liability tort + 2) insurance market "voluntary" compliance.

Like the IIHS in the automotive world, insurance companies get real world data factored for financial payout and adjust standards. Far faster and accurate.

[SV DestinyAscen]

Originally Posted by Polux

They don't have a life expectancy of 5 years. If the boat will sink do to that in 5 years the boat builder is liable and that is a completely different matter.

I don't know anybody that change through hulls of new boats after 5 years. Normally they should be changed between 10 and 15 years but should be checked thoroughly once a year after the initial 5 years.

I think he was arguing that the standards are ****. The equivalent of minimum housing codes.

If you set your goal as the minium, it's still a **** house even if you can legally build it

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK so how is it determined that a boat is a Class A boat?
Is there a set of rules that determine structural limits and are there conforming articles built that are tested to these rules and have to demonstrate minimum strength, does a Certification agency show up and conduct or witness these tests etc?
How about is the boat taken out in weather that is Class A and test sailed?

Finally, 40 kts and 13', really? I have stumbled into worse than that in the Gulf of Mexico, that is all they have to take, at 14' and 41 kts, they don't have to survive?

This is not a comment about any boat manufacturer, just the Certification

100% agree.

CE certification to me doesn't mean anything, or very little to me.

Cheers

Yeloya

[a64pilot]

FWIW VW was only the last major automaker to get caught, I believe nearly all of them have cheated, and been caught in the past.
Quick Google turned this up and I think this is just recently, in the 90's I think GM had their cars turn off emissions equipment when the AC was on, and other manufacturers had theirs activated only when test conditions were met etc.
6 Vehicle Emissions Testing Scandals - How Car Makers Are Cheating Emissions Tests

VW was far from the first

[SV DestinyAscen]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

FWIW VW was only the last major automaker to get caught, I believe nearly all of them have cheated, and been caught in the past.
Quick Google turned this up and I think this is just recently, in the 90's I think GM had their cars turn off emissions equipment when the AC was on, and other manufacturers had theirs activated only when test conditions were met etc.
6 Vehicle Emissions Testing Scandals - How Car Makers Are Cheating Emissions Tests



VW was far from the first

Truth - when the compliance standard is not one that the consumer can detect or particularly care about, regulatory agencies and engineering academics are the only ones who'll do the work.

I wouldn't expect the EU CE pencil types to do better than the WVA academics curious about emissions control and discovered the fraud.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

Another point, Lagoon has balsa cored decks yet are CE certified?

There are plenty of quality monohulls with balsa core among them Dehler or Contest. Only recently Dehler is moving to closed cell core but I never heard that their past boats had problems.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Polux

There are plenty of quality monohulls with balsa core among them Dehler or Contest. Only recently Dehler is moving to closed cell core but I never heard that their past boats had problems.

Cotemar stated to be CE certified a boat must use divinicell in its decks as a core.


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[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

Cotemar stated to be CE certified a boat must use divinicell in its decks as a core.

I was talking about hulls and he was talking about decks about FP and multihulls. I confess that I don't know if it is mandatory for multihulls but it makes sense since a sandwich with foam is lighter than one with balsa and on the multihulls bringing the CG down with the materials that are used is very important.

[boatpoker]

Please show me where CE specifies type of core to be used in hull or deck.

[Cotemar]

There is always an alternative.

Just look on e-bay.

They always have a few of these beauties for sale, GUARANTIED to cross oceans.

For most smart cruisers that are buying a catamaran, the process starts by going to a good Production Catamaran builder that has already made hundreds of catamarans that have already crossed oceans.
.
.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

There is always an alternative.

Just look on e-bay.

They always have a few of these beauties for sale, GUARANTIED to cross oceans.

For most smart cruisers that are buying a catamaran, the process starts by going to a good Production Catamaran builder that has already made hundreds of catamarans that have already crossed oceans.
.
.

Don't know if I'd say smart, but maybe sticking to their comfort zone.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

They don't have a life expectancy of 5 years. If the boat will sink do to that in 5 years the boat builder is liable and that is a completely different matter.

I don't know anybody that change through hulls of new boats after 5 years. Normally they should be changed between 10 and 15 years but should be checked thoroughly once a year after the initial 5 years.

The recent use of inferior brass through hulls and valves on Lagoons and other European boats is well known, Polux. And problems resulting from the dezincification of these fittings.

See for example: The dangers of CW617N European Brass Valves, skin fittings and hose tails - Boat, Yacht & Marine Surveyors

Why would the maker be liable if the boat sinks in Year 6, if the warranty is only for two years, and the standards only call for a useful life of 5 years? I doubt that it would be a problem other than PR.

This is a real problem. If I had a boat with through-hulls made of that crap, I wouldn't wait even five years to change them. I would change them immediately to bronze or DZR, as they should have been built in the first place. Plain brass has no place in underwater fittings, and this is clearly a flaw in the RCD standards.