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Old 26-09-2008, 09:47   #16
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My guess is you need a big high aspect daggerboard. It's a big mod but will dramatically help pointing ability.
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Old 26-09-2008, 10:09   #17
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End plates on a shoal keel are not ready for prime time. Tank testing (I haven't had access to much ) hasn't opened any new horizons, either because the magic ratios of placement, shape and size haven't been found, or because the added parasite drag wipes out any advantage.

I DO KNOW this. Run a plate aground in mud, and you are as permanent a land mark as Mother Nature will allow.

If there is that much difference in your pointing ability between port and starboard tacks, there is something fundamentally wrong, like Ama alignment, big-time weight distribution probs, (water in the Amas?) or more growth on one side. I agree you should check your mast. Changing the rake won't make much of a difference here.
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Old 26-09-2008, 11:39   #18
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Hi folks,
Whilst out last weekend I could not get my ketch rigged Cross 38 to point very well. It points to about 55 degrees hard on the wind not very good, not real bad, but still not good. The sails are new but cut somewhat full.
Also I have been thinking of removing the mizzen since I seldom use it. It would free up the aft area for my solar panels,and would allow for easier deployment of an aft anchor. Also the cockpit is woefully lacking in drainage. I have been thinking of adding drainage tubes. I am interested if anyone on the site has this type of boat and what they did to alleviate the problem. Finally I have a new Lewmar Freedom windless to install, I understand there is a particular rope to chain splice to use. What might that be?
What were the winds like? How was your genoa set? In stronger winds, especially, it should be quite flat and inboard just a few inches off the spreaders. In heavier air, move the genny block far back, but then double check that all the inside telltales break evenly. If the top breaks first, move the blocks up a bit and vice versa. Outboard (leeward) telltales should stream straight back, while inboard (windward) "dance" for max pointing.

On the main, make sure you don't backwind it. Set the trim with the mainsheet, but then adjust the position of the main with the traveller. The traveler is key -- move it up (to windward) as far as possible without bringing the foot of the main any higher than midship. The foot should be aligned with the top batten, if you have one. The leech telltales on the mainsail should all be streaming aft, but in case you can't manage that, the top one at least should be flying.

Good luck!
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Old 26-09-2008, 14:26   #19
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This place has 2 one hour videos for sale or rent.

AMERICA'S CUP 1988
This 60-minute video takes you behind the scenes in New Zealand and San Diego. Provides footage of the boats being built and fills you in on the unprecedented legal maneuvering. 60 minutes

RACE FOR CUP, 1988 America's Cup
The controversial 1988 America’s Cup Race between Michael Fay and Dennis Conner, shot from New Zealand’s point of view. 60 min.

Check it out :

Seven Oceans - Maritime Video
Thanks for that MP. I was actually hoping for freebies on youtube or the like, but I'll check them out anyway.
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Old 27-09-2008, 07:20   #20
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Let me rephrase that, as apparent wind is a product of tacking angle and boat speed, (the angle moves in relation to the boat speed) I would ask what is the tacking angle from full luff >>>all sails flogging.....to full either side. This is the full charted angle that you need to plot to keep you safe. (+ 10 deg) margin......
Unless you're a very expensive racing boat with a very tall , High Aspect sail plan, I don't think you're going to see 30 degrees off of true in any boat. 30 degrees Apparent.. sure..

I had another thought on this pointing situation. I didn't see you mention what size genny you're using. I carry two head sails, a working jib and a 155 genoa. I achieve 30 degrees apparent with the working jib, but the 155 stalls at 55 degrees apparent. With leeway, it's difficult to make much progress windward. Nothing wrong with the sail, it's just the nature of the beast as higher aspect sails improve windward ability
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Old 28-09-2008, 00:05   #21
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pointing ability

Thanks all for the input. I am going out tomorrow the winds will be light again. I have a 100 percent roller furling jib no jenny. I will check the mast for center. Once this problem is solved I want to go to synthetic rigging and move my aft stays so I can have more roach in the main. There is an Nicol across from me. He has a Cross mini keel and does well going to weather. Just a matter of sorting things out I guess. Still miss my Marples.
Had another Cross 38 tie up in the slip next to me. He just came over, 26 days for the crossing. And I was complaining about 18.
Anyone on the list here in the islands?
Sarge
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Old 28-09-2008, 01:26   #22
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Aloha Sarge

Yes, I'm in the islands

Congrats on your crossing!

I actually heard that you were coming. The guy that was going to crew with you, is the guy that has the Crowther for sale in San Pedro, right?

Anyway, Mast rake, sail shape, etc are going to have an insignificant effect on your windward ability compared to the fact that you have a fin keel instead of a daggerboard/centerboard.

That alone is the primary reason that you see such a difference between your previous Marples (centerboard), and your current Cross (fin keel) in terms of pointing ability.

Don't get me wrong, Cross designed some excellent boats. And they have proven themselves over the years

But daggerboards/centerboards are the most efficient upwind sailing devices yet invented. And without one you won't be able to approach the level of windward ability that a boat with one has.

I would also think twice about ditching the mizzen mast. Doing so could dramatically affect the balance of the helm. And you might end up with worse upwind capability than you have now

Welcome to Hawaii!
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Old 28-09-2008, 22:53   #23
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My suspicion if balance. If the boat was fitted with a mizzen, it says something about the balance of the sails.
I'd also check the rudder for fairness and shape.
Robert
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Old 29-09-2008, 17:17   #24
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Hey Sarge, were you flying the mizzen when working to weather? I read through the thread and did not notice if you were. How did the helm feel when hard on the wind?
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Old 29-09-2008, 17:27   #25
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This thread has lots of talk, mostly with people quoting silly numbers about apparent wind angles. WHO CARES?

If you really want to supply useful info about your boat's pointing ability give REAL tacking angles over the ground. Even better, lets start talking about what REALLY counts, and that is VMG parallel to the wind.

For example, my boat will "point" 36 to 38 degrees to the apparent wind. But the real over ground tacking angle is close to 105 to 110.

By way of discussion relative to this thread, in the opening message the boat was described as pointing at "55 deg". If that is CMG at 55 deg to the true wind thats not bad for a cruising boat. If on eht other hand, it's 55 deg apparent wind when close hauled, that's AWFUL!
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Old 29-09-2008, 18:33   #26
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I agree with Ketch - With proper instrumentation you should be able to sus out what is "really" going on.

GPS will give you velocity made good to a mark - you also get Speed Over the Ground (helful for working out tide effects. You also get bearing and course which can help determine how much leeway you are giving up.

Wind instruments will geve you wind speed and angles

A speed log gives you boat speed - which a gps does not

Then go out and start gathering data. A test plan might be...

- Find slack tide to remove tide effects as much as possible
- Establish an upwind mark
- Sail to the upwind mark on both tacks while logging data
- Repeat at various wind speeds - average the data to reduce variation due to shifts

With the data in hand you can analyze:

Is it a boat structural problem - keel, hull etc.,
Is it a rigging problem - is the mast straight, raked properly etc.
Is it a trimming problem - Sail shaping, sheeting etc.

Make few changes at a time, gather more data and analyze the changes

Try and find a one-design fleet and go talk to the sailor's. I have learned a "boat" load about rigging, trimming and sail shaping in the last year by racing on J24s. With all the boats being the same and racing head to head you get instant feedback about how the boat and crew is doing.

2 cents in here...
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Old 29-09-2008, 20:50   #27
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30 deg...off the true wind ? hhhmmm like to hear more people with that sort of performance.
Can't bring myself to think in terms of true wind, apparent wind angles are far more conducive to happiness.... this might be a side-product of a small boat sailor migrating to a full keel behemoth.
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Old 30-09-2008, 02:13   #28
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pointing ability

Hi folks,
Didn't make it out over the weekend, this week end for sure. Nope I wasn't flying the mizzen will do that this time. No rake in the mast. Boat felt sluggish and didn't accelerate well. Maybe because I was pinching.The jib has to be back winded to tack in light airs. Only about 30 degrees of rudder either tack after installing the autopilot. No wind instruments and the windex broke off
after I left the coast of Cal.
Vmg and COG where the same parallel to the swell which was only about 3 feet. COG was half VMG on port tack and into the swell. Point to point was about 110 degrees on the compass.


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Old 30-09-2008, 02:32   #29
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Vmg and COG where the same parallel to the swell which was only about 3 feet. COG was half VMG on port tack and into the swell. Point to point was about 110 degrees on the compass.

Sarge
This is confusing as heck for me and doesn't make sense...

Forget VMG for a minute - Do you have a speed log?

Set a course between two marks into the wind and get your tide,ocean and boat speed recorded on each tack.

Boat speed first.

There are a ton of things that could be affecting VMG.
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Old 30-09-2008, 02:55   #30
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Sorry no speed log. On this side of the island I can only get one mark into the wind as the other would be some where around Kodiak. No tides to speak of. This is all open ocean sailing.
Merlin will you be at HYC this Friday?
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