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Old 04-03-2008, 06:36   #1
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Please enlighten me.

We are going to buy a boat, we need to sell the house first so we don't have an exact timeframe yet. We are thinking about going either of two ways.
Buy a French build boat and do the Med/ Europe. Or, buy a boat in Australia and do the Goldcoast before going up to Malaysia/ Thailand etc.
Upon looking at the different boats I noticed something interesting, a Lightwave 45 weighs in at 6500 kg min. displacement, a Catana 43 weighs in at 11.000 kg lightweight displacement. Both have a reputation for being good sailing boats. Catana uses carbon fibre for strength an saving weight but still comes in at almost double the weight, even being the smaller boat. Is the weight of the Catana the result of what you need to get a structuraly sound boat or are the Lightwave people on to something the French haven't figured out yet? The Perry 43 seems to be a bit heavier as the Lightwave as well as the Privilege. We are looking for a bigger boat but the question remains the same.
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Old 04-03-2008, 07:37   #2
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Hi again, Erik - First of all, I suggest you be wary of all boat builders claims of the displacements of their models.

I have no first hand knowledge of the Lightwave boats. I do not know anything of how they are built nor of the materials used. From a distance they appear to be well thought out and seaworthy.

Assuming for the moment that the LW 45 really is that much lighter than the C431, your hypothesis that the LW folks have pulled one over on the French could be true. More plausible is that the C431 has more margin built into it or has more creature comforts that add weight or simply has more material to achieve that high freeboard to achieve that high bridgedeck clearance - or all of the above and more.

For certain the 431 is a proven world voyager. You cannot go wrong with this boat for what you want to do. The LW may also be a good choice. Have you sailed both of them?

Dave
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Old 04-03-2008, 07:41   #3
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No, I have never sailed a Lightwave. They do have a high bridgedeck clearance though, Maybe you are right, it might be the creature comforts that make the difference.
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Old 04-03-2008, 07:59   #4
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Erik - I strongly suggest you crawl all over a similar model of any boat you're considering buying - then sail one if at all possible. It doesn't even have to be the exact same model - examining/sailing a bigger or smaller version from the same mfg will inform you.

Good luck!

Dave
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Old 04-03-2008, 12:04   #5
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There is also a difference in the requirements, all CE approved boats have to fulfill certain reuirements regarding scantlings, layup (fibre weight), window/hatch thicknesses,etc. Australian boats don't follow these rules. I'm not saying that they aren't strong enough, just that I know that someone tried to get a Schionning CE approved after he was halfway through the build, and had to give up because it would require at least 400 g/m2 more glass on the outside.

I don't know if the Catanas are infused, but on a 45 ft boat this can mean between 1 and 2 tons extra polyester that adds no real strength. The fitout on many french boats, especially the ones primarily going to the charter market, are very heavy, you see 12 mm thick plywood doors on cupboards, draws like in your kitchen at home, soles of 22 mm plywood, glass partitions in showers etc.

If you are planning on selling the boat in the EU at some time, you will need CE. Also beware of the rules regarding VAT, I think 5 years out of the EU, and you have to pay again - check this out.

The Catanas have a reputation as fast boats, but in fact I'm not so sure that this still holds true. The old Lock Crowther designed ones were apparently good, but you can buy a comparison of different types of cat from Mutihull dynamics - this is is not pure science, but will give you some ideas about how compared boats will perform based on a number of ratios like Sail Area/Displacement.

Also beware of comparing any weights, salesmen are not always your best source of reliable information in this business.

Finally, check out exactly what Catana mean, because there seems to be some misunderstandings regarding the "CE weight" and actual lightship/fully loaded displacement.
I know a guy who is trying to work this out, as he has just bought a Lagoon, and it was lighter when he hauled it than the weight on the spec sheet, so he is waiting for some answers from Lagoon.

Good Luck

Alan
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Old 04-03-2008, 12:20   #6
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I think this is relevant enough to the thread so forgive me if it is not. Are cats built in South Africa meeting CE standards? I may one day want to buy my cat in S.A. and eventually sell it in Europe...so it is a concern.
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Old 04-03-2008, 13:59   #7
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Hallo David , only cats build in South Africa that are checked and approved by a Ce certification bureau are CE certified.
Examples of this certification are
St Francis.
Afri Cat marine ( power cats )
Robertson and Caine boats ( moorings )
Voyage Catamarans
Dean Catamarans
African Cats
Knysna Catamarans and
Royal cape catamarans.
I do not know of any other CE class A certified catamarans but this can be checked at any CE certification bureau.
CE certified cats bring more money when resold in the used market and are build to stringent standards., It also increases your market to sell a boat.
I know for a fact that wherever customers come from , all ask for the |CE certification.
If not sure, ask for the certification papers , I know for instance that Charter cats told any customer that there boats where ce A certified and that while they had not even applied for this let alone that they received certification.

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 04-03-2008, 14:23   #8
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So how do some of these South African mfg manage to build a CE certified boat at around 6500 kg when Catana cannot?

Designer:
Angelo Lavranos /
Gideon Goudsmit
Overall Length:
13,16m - 43 ft 1 in
Waterline Length:
12,59 m - 41 ft 3 in
Beam:
7,49m - 25 ft in
Draft:
1,12 m - 3ft 9in
Mast Height off DWL:
20,43 m - 59ft 10in
Displacement:
<6500 kg - 14 300 lbs
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Old 04-03-2008, 15:27   #9
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Does anyone here now of any long range power cats?? Didn't mean to hijack your thread but this was the first time I heard of Afri Cat Marine and it was a really good read.. I am also debating on which type of cat I want..
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Old 04-03-2008, 22:58   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik C View Post
So how do some of these South African mfg manage to build a CE certified boat at around 6500 kg when Catana cannot?

Designer:
Angelo Lavranos /
Gideon Goudsmit
Overall Length:
13,16m - 43 ft 1 in
Waterline Length:
12,59 m - 41 ft 3 in
Beam:
7,49m - 25 ft in
Draft:
1,12 m - 3ft 9in
Mast Height off DWL:
20,43 m - 59ft 10in
Displacement:
<6500 kg - 14 300 lbs
Hallo Erik
ik is all a matter of different building techniques and stronger materials used.
for instance , our interior is made out of nomex honeycomb material at a weight of 1,3 kilo per squire meter , we use carbon , kevlar/twaron and basalt fiber in construction of a FastCat.and the biggest weights saver is resin infusion of epoxy compared with hand lamination.
a squire meter of hull weights 4,9 kilo while a hand laminated for the same strenght will weigh more than double. last , we look at all our materials used and look for lighter replacements.
We do not use gellcoat but Awl grip spray paint 700 grams per squire meter saved
4 items for instance
carbon fiber sailing battens versus glass battens - 70 % in weight
Textile side stays versus dyform steel - 88 % in weight
carbon or pvc toilets versus porcelin - 90 % in weight
Litium ion batterys versus AGM - 80 % in weight
the disadvantage is that all these light weight materials cost much more than their heavy counterparts and resin infusion with spraypainting doubles the labor time.
greetings
gideon
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Old 04-03-2008, 23:00   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow View Post
Does anyone here now of any long range power cats?? Didn't mean to hijack your thread but this was the first time I heard of Afri Cat Marine and it was a really good read.. I am also debating on which type of cat I want..
Hallo Shadow
our Africat 420 has a long range of 2000 nm @ 8 knots of speed and our new 380 will have 1800 nm at the same speed, it is possible to get extra tanks to increase the range to 2600 nm for both

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 05-03-2008, 01:33   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik C View Post
So how do some of these South African mfg manage to build a CE certified boat at around 6500 kg when Catana cannot?

Designer:
Angelo Lavranos /
Gideon Goudsmit
Overall Length:
13,16m - 43 ft 1 in
Waterline Length:
12,59 m - 41 ft 3 in
Beam:
7,49m - 25 ft in
Draft:
1,12 m - 3ft 9in
Mast Height off DWL:
20,43 m - 59ft 10in
Displacement:
<6500 kg - 14 300 lbs

It is all in the details. 4 cabins with 4 toilets/showers, metal tanks instead of integral tanks, cheaper but heavier fittings, internal fitout instead of painted surfaces etc.

I am in the process of designing a boat, and am at present looking at about a thousand seperate items that will go into the bare shell. By careful selection, and not least omission, there is easily at least a ton to spare.

For eaxmple, by omitting a fancy wood trim part around every opening in the boat, like around drawers, doors etc, saving 200 kgs. Integral tanks under the soles. 2 water, 2 fuel, 2 blackwater and 2 greywater, around 100 kgs. Composite throughhull fittings and valves, around 15 kg.
Worktops easily 20 kg saving by not using standard Corian.
Minimising electrical and pipe runs around 100 kg.
Use of composites instead of wood/plywood/MDF in internal fitout is also some hundred kilos. Ensuring that every piece of composite that goes into the boat has at least a dual function if possible, like adds strength as well as perform the standard function.
Lightweight stanchions.
A composite targa that also works as davits and bimini support saves around 60-80 kgs.
Lightweight glue-on solat panels instead of framed ones that need addtional mounting brackets saves at least 50 kgs for 7 panels.
Slats under beds instead of panels...

The list is long.

Only by careful attention to every detail can you really get the weight down. Then defining exactly what you want in the way of comfort/toys keeps things clear. e.g. using a flat panel TV with a surround system, versus a dual pupose PC with some good speakers saves you another 20 kgs.
A dive compressor weighs 42 kgs, plus a bit to mount. Sails - by using more expensive materials, you can save at least 50 kgs on these. High quality but slightly thinner ropes.....

These are things that most of the standard builders skimp on. I have a french boat at present, and this is an older one from 1994, before they started going primarily after the charter market, so it is somewhat lighter than the later models of the same boat, actually around 15% lighter, or around 600 kgs on a 35 footer.


But, as stated earlier in the thread, beware of all weight statements, work these into your contract if buying a new boat, get a used one weighed before even thinking of signing.

The best you will get is around 7 tons for a 45-47 footer with some luxuries like watermaker, and full cruising fitout like extra anchors and rodes, autopilot, dinghy, full nav, radios etc. This is lightship with no liquids.

Regards

Alan
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Old 05-03-2008, 04:11   #13
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Thanks fastcat!! We are still debating from a full displacement hull like a trawler/Tug or perhaps an efficient long range cat. I like the 2600nm optioned extra tankage.. Sounds nice and what are the price ranges for those cat??

Cheers!!
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:53   #14
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Do remember if you go long distance in Cats you have a lot of space to store gerry cans of fuel. Don't add to your fixed tankage, loose a tank to leak or contamination and you've lost the lot. Gerry cans will work for four to six hours each. Long enough.
And take a water maker, again you don't want to set out heavy laden, make it as you go, burn a bit more diesel. Consider how you can collect rain water if you expect to get any. It's good enough to do washing in. Talk to some long rangers for best foods. See elsewhere, dry tack is not brilliant but.
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Old 05-03-2008, 08:24   #15
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First of all thank you all for your reactions to my question. I'm no naval architect or structural engineer so I don't pretend to know it all, on the contrary, hence my question.
6 tons is a lot of weight, about 4 average cars worth!! Now I can see that using a different building method can save you a few kg per m2 of hull and by skimping on the interiour outfit you can save a few hundred kg more but that only accounts for the weight of maybe one car. What about the other three? To me ( a layman) that can only mean there must be a substantial difference in hull thickness and the structure of the bulkheads and crossbeams etc. etc. And if the CE certification requires that amount of material used they must have a good reason for that. And again, I'm using Catana weights, using most other EU made catamarans the difference would be even greater. If we were talking racing cats vs cruising cats it would be a different story, racing boats are expected to be build on the limit to make them as fast as possible. I'm not questioning the integrity of any given catamaran, I'm just trying to understand the huge difference in dry weight of the different manufacturer cruising models. The reason I realy want to know all this is to avoid making a mistake, I cannot afford to buy the wrong boat.
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