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Old 06-03-2008, 03:27   #31
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ps, I think in Charles Kanters book on cruising catamarans he suggest checking out some older examples of the particular boats you are contemplating buying to see how they stand up over time. Seems like areal good idea,

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Old 06-03-2008, 06:27   #32
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Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Hallo Eric

You are only a pain to your self,
I do not see how you would replace a hulll or deck with "normal gear"
Or all other items on board.This Untried technology as you call it already are being used by Boeing and Airbus and other industries for over 40 years.
Anyday you step into an aircraft you are trying out these so called new
Technologies .
I do not see Airbus throwing out carbon fiber and replace it with glass fiber.or nomex honeycomb and use solid aluminium as in the DC 3 was used.
Resin infusion has been around since the 50 s , Epoxy was first made in Germany in 1913 , remember the black phones made out of bakelite?
If Dyneema where not around now the oil companys would have a much harder time to keep drilling rigs in place in oceans where the depth is 4000 meters.Maybe you should trow away your computer or laptop and return to an abacus because the chinese have trusted these for thousends of years and they are also conventional.
Believe me , if among others Catana had the ability to produce in our way without raising the cost of their yachts and in France they would.
Why would a boat builder in their right state off mind bring out a new 46 ft cat With a weight of 16 tons as Catana advertise their new 46 ft cat ?
Any kilo saved is a kilo saved and increases the performance,payload,pointing ability and bridgedeck height.
If I hear you talk you should get a Lagoon 42 with old trusted diesels at +_ 13 ton and sail at a average speed of 5/6 knots.
Greetings and good luck with your new Lagoon.
What a shame you seem to take this personal, I'm just trying to understand all the different ways to build a boat thereby trying to avoid making a mistake by buying the wrong one. I could not find any data on the new? Catana 46 so I looked at the 47 ft model.
CATANA 47 Ocean Class
L.O.A.
15.70 m (51'5'') L.W.L.


13.80 m (45'3'')
Maximum Beam




7.70 m (25'3'')
Light Displacement (approx.)


12 500 kg (27,600 lbs)
Quite a bit shy of 16 tons.

And since when are Lagoon owners the laughing stock of the catamaran community? I think that was an unneccesary remark.
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Old 06-03-2008, 07:07   #33
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Hallo Eric

I did not make Lagoon owners the laughing stock , just used Lagoon as a example of a heavy type cat , and there is nothing wrong with that , just a different boat for different folks. Good for cruising but not with performance.
The Catana 46 was advertised in the Last Multihull world by Catana and they suggest a weight of 16.5 tons not me.The Catana 50 has a weight of 16.5 tons according to Catana website but the actual weight is more like 19 tons.
I am not taking this personal at all I just tried to explain to you that the untried technology you talk about you have been living with for a long time, unless off course you do not fly or drive a car or etc etc.
I have got nothing against Catana or Lagoon or any other cat as long as they are built safe and strong .
We just do things in another fashion because I like comfort and performance.I have seen many Catana,s 471 and have sailed them and have seen them in a crane but have never seen 12.5 tons but maybe 2 hulls knows more about this.

Greetings and good luck with your choice

Gideon

P.S sold a FastCat 455 this morning to owners of a Catana 431 of 8 years old
they told me the weight of their 431 is around 11.5 tons with empty tanks but with all equipment in place .
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Old 06-03-2008, 07:18   #34
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Thanks for the response FastCat. Pleased to see you are reducing sail areas as weight comes down. I suppose it saves a bit more weight too but as you are not reducing hull size you are providing more and more boat for the money.
As sail area equals sail loads and that helps in boat handling, short crewing and so on. I am emormously impressed with your approach. Cruising a forty foot cat with the sails of a thirty five is just so much easier. Wish I could afford it, I really do. You are building the boats that every cruiser really wants. Light, easy, spacious. Hope when there are more on the water folks will start to take them more seriously. My very best wishes to you.
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Old 06-03-2008, 07:43   #35
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Erik,

Regarding use of building materials and going back to "traditional" materials, I really don't think you would have to worry about that. Margard Lexan is the best window material possible for catamarans, very close to the scratch resistance of glass, far stronger and far less weight, but it's 10 times the cost of glass. You'd never want to go back to glass from that. You'd never need to. The batteries that AfricanCats are using are 1/2 the weight of lead acid, but again, 10 times the cost and they last several thousand cycles longer than lead acid so realistically you could use them for cruising for a decades. Epoxy construction used by fastcat and by top monohull makers such as tartan also provides you with the strongest hull with the least water absorbancy. Again though, it's way more expensive then polyester resins. But once done, you certainly wouldn't (and can't) go backwards. A charter type boat such as lagoon who 90% of their sales are to charter companies has to produce things to a price point because simply put there are many other charter boat manufacturers out there and they need to compete in the rental business. Competition between Moorings, Lagoon, FP and most others is relentless. They have a business case to keep expenses low and accomodation as large and accomodating as possible. Sailing performance isn't in the equation because who cares how quickly you can go from point A to point B when the whole objective of a charter is that you start off at an ideal location and stay there. Charter boats also need to make a product which will last under lots of wear, has accessible engines and wiring conduits for quick repair, because those things reduce the total cost of ownership, but cost and hotel room like layout that are their top concerns. They could choose a $1200 a piece battery like AfricanCats, but what rental company in their right mind would want a battery that expensive when their boats typically are in charter service for only 5 years?

A boat like a Gunboat, or an AfricanCat is made under a different business case to make boats for owner buyers who want the best boat possible made out of the best materials knowing that really there is a market for a "worlds best" boat for buyers. These top end boat manufacturers are far less worried about costs as they are made for a descriminating buyer who is either coached or knows from years of research really what the best materials are for construction.

I can understand how you would be confused, most of the information out there comes from boat brokers who have deals to sell as many ex charter boats as possible. Therefore they say things like "you really want a charter boat because they are built to last, they are far more repairable, they have far better name recognition, they have far better resale value" I've heard it all for over 15 years as brokers point at former charter boats that were in horrible shape, have horrible design flaws, and hope that I won't notice anything other than really spacious accomodations (which they all did have). I also understand the frustration Gideon must have trying to constantly reeducate buyers who've had that misinformation pumped into them. And, in respect to Lagoon owners, the boats certainly have plush layouts and will last for 50 years and can and do make circumnavigations, but again, it's made with a different business case.

Finally, remember that most of the older names have legacy businesses with legacy factories, so it's easier for a company such as Gunboat or Africancats to compete with these older brands for the high end business because the newer groups are able to start from scratch choosing manufacturing techniques and facilities which are state of the art vs trying to cost justify recompletely retrofitting an older existing factory.

Welcome to the very interesting world of buying a new catamaran and best of luck,

Doug
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:21   #36
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Great post Doug. I think the world needs all types of boats because it is filled with all types of people. To each his own. I applaude Gideon and other builders who are using proven techniques to improve the boating community.
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:41   #37
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Hey Gideon - who builds your carbon masts?

Dave
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:55   #38
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Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Hallo mark stop scratching you might loose your hair and a bit of weight.
We use 2 electric toilets each under 3 kilo complete I have the Jabsco
catalog here and the lightest toilet they produce is 16 kilo , this is a smal bowl and it is without the pump , the lightest electric version is 28 kilo,s so if we had used the hand operated toilets our saving would have been 33 kilo but since these are electric the saving is 50 kilo,s I am really no interested if it is 48 or 50 the fact is that it saves weight.
If we can replace an item of 1 kilo for an item of 600 grams and have the same quality we will do so.
For instance , Our 5 winches have a total weigth of 31 kilo made by Holmatro or Harken .if these where made by Lewmar or anderson the weight would be double., 30 kilos extra is 0.5 % weight addition , you might think that is nothing but it adds up.
Greetings

Gideon
Hi Gideon
Which electric toilets are you using which weigh in at only 3kgs each?.
thanks
ian
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:04   #39
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Halo Ireaney we are using the RM 69 made in the Netherlands by Raske and van der Meijden Have been using them for 5 years now without any failure and the macerator is build in the system.
They do not like paper like most toilets but all natural waste is ok

We carry stock and if we can help you let us know

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Old 06-03-2008, 09:18   #40
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I agree with Blue Skye - great post Schoonerdog! And Eric, if Gideon took your posting a little personally, it was because you were attacking his 'babies' (as I am sure he sees the Fastcats) with a posting that was a little unfair/inaccurate in terms of the technology he employs.

That being said, while I love the Fastcats they are beyond my current means (and my current needs, since I will ultimately be using this boat for day charters with a fairly large number of guests). As to your budget/current needs, that is something only you can answer. I agree totally, however, with 2Hulls suggestion that you consider visiting the plants once you have narrowed down your list. And also, of course, it is critical that you not only speak to current/past owners of boats that you are interested in, but also take test sails in (preferably) strong winds and moderately high seas.

Once you have read everything you can get your hands on, climbed up and over a number of boats and test-sailed them you will find the boat that is right for you. Just keep in mind the old idiom that in multihulls you can have any two (but only two) of the following: accomodations, performance and low price. Only you can decide what your priorities are. Where you realistically expect to sail, the size of your typical crew/guest list, whether you are the type of sailor that tends to want to race or compete with nearby boats, or you are the type that is happily passed by others, whether you are a 'comfort hound' who wants/needs air conditioning, large freezers, washer/driers and large screen tv's, whether you are happy with a small inflatable/outboard or want a large RIB with a large motor - all of these things only you can answer. The good news with Catamarans is that there will likely be some reputable manufacturer making a boat that tends towards your set of priorities, so long as you keep them realistic and understand that an emphasis on one area will tend to compromise another.

Brad
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:27   #41
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Hey Gideon - who builds your carbon masts?

Dave
Hallo Dave , depending on the boat and choice of the customer
Southern spars
Southern Spars : world leaders in carbon spar design and engineering
Or Marstrom in Sweden
Marström

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:32   #42
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I agree with Blue Skye - great post Schoonerdog! And Eric, if Gideon took your posting a little personally, it was because you were attacking his 'babies' (as I am sure he sees the Fastcats) with a posting that was a little unfair/inaccurate in terms of the technology he employs.

That being said, while I love the Fastcats they are beyond my current means (and my current needs, since I will ultimately be using this boat for day charters with a fairly large number of guests). As to your budget/current needs, that is something only you can answer. I agree totally, however, with 2Hulls suggestion that you consider visiting the plants once you have narrowed down your list. And also, of course, it is critical that you not only speak to current/past owners of boats that you are interested in, but also take test sails in (preferably) strong winds and moderately high seas.

Once you have read everything you can get your hands on, climbed up and over a number of boats and test-sailed them you will find the boat that is right for you. Just keep in mind the old idiom that in multihulls you can have any two (but only two) of the following: accomodations, performance and low price. Only you can decide what your priorities are. Where you realistically expect to sail, the size of your typical crew/guest list, whether you are the type of sailor that tends to want to race or compete with nearby boats, or you are the type that is happily passed by others, whether you are a 'comfort hound' who wants/needs air conditioning, large freezers, washer/driers and large screen tv's, whether you are happy with a small inflatable/outboard or want a large RIB with a large motor - all of these things only you can answer. The good news with Catamarans is that there will likely be some reputable manufacturer making a boat that tends towards your set of priorities, so long as you keep them realistic and understand that an emphasis on one area will tend to compromise another.

Brad
Hallo Brad , Eric and Schoonerdog I would like to ad to this , also sail in very light winds , between 5 and 15 knots because most of the time these are the winds that you will have and here the real advantage of light weight plays a big role , 10 knots of wind and 8 or 9 knots of speeds is what we all want but there are very few boats that can do that.
Good Luck

Gideon
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:34   #43
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..., but no fiddles for example on shelving unless owner specifies. ...
Glenn
Fiddles? What would you need those for?

Would a violin do? (grin)
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:49   #44
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Hi again, Erik - First of all, I suggest you be wary of all boat builders claims of the displacements of their models.


I have no first hand knowledge of the Lightwave boats. I do not know anything of how they are built nor of the materials used. From a distance they appear to be well thought out and seaworthy.

Assuming for the moment that the LW 45 really is that much lighter than the C431, your hypothesis that the LW folks have pulled one over on the French could be true. More plausible is that the C431 has more margin built into it or has more creature comforts that add weight or simply has more material to achieve that high freeboard to achieve that high bridgedeck clearance - or all of the above and more.

For certain the 431 is a proven world voyager. You cannot go wrong with this boat for what you want to do. The LW may also be a good choice. Have you sailed both of them?

Dave
Hallo 2 Hulls what a fantastic picture , is that your 471 with the iceberg ?
very nice shot both the Catana and the surroundings

Gideon
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:54   #45
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Hallo 2 Hulls what a fantastic picture , is that your 471 with the iceberg ?
very nice shot both the Catana and the surroundings

Gideon
Hi Gideon - yes, that is my boat, but I can't take credit for either the picture nor getting the boat to Patagonia. The previous owner took it around Cape Horn.

Dave
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