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Old 05-03-2008, 08:53   #16
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And take note of Fastcat's approach to performance. He's shedding weight with each build. How many home builders would do it a little differently the next time?
There is also cruising speeds to assess. I read in these pages that the majority of cruising is in less than twenty knots of wind and a boat that does half the wind speed is the minimum acceptable for long cruising legs. 10 per cent slower means ten percent more stores at departure. Which means a bit more slower which means etc etc. Eventually you'll finish a voyage hungry, thirsty and with no power or comms because you set off too light. Alternate destinations, diversion planning can improve total journey time and provide for storm avoidance. Be sensible in planning. It's great to plan a non-stop with nominal stores but it gets dangerous if the passage is slow. I like FastCat's approach but if they get much lighter then it will eventually become necessary to consider reducing the rig. Volume is not the only answer to comfort if you can't pack more stuff in but reducing the bare weight doesn't mean this is the safe weight to go cruising. If payload goes up for comfort then performance goes back to average.
Cruising gets more like early sailing and flying. Plan the journey in comfortable legs. It's nice to have the range to skip a stop on a good run but then you don't see so many places. The first three days are with a good weather forecast, after that there's luck.
Researching helps you define the practical and then you have to compromise. Each to his own.
Two up? How many guests for overnight sailing / marina visits? Cockpit seating for ten, fridge, solar panels, wind genny. Then there's gas, alchohol or diesel cooking. Availability where you are going. It's endless. I'm buying secound hand because I know the boat has already done most of the things I expect of it.
All I've got to do is keep us all safe while I learn to get the best out of her without scaring the admiral.
Biggest problem at the moment is that alot of new cat's are aimed at marina sailors because they are the ones with money. Getting a practical cruiser limits your choice considerably if you want reasonable performance, reasonable comfort, reasonable price. Good luck. I hope you find the right boat for you and yours. I know how much pain it will cost me if I get it wrong.
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:09   #17
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Hi again Erik - I have a suggestion for you. If you're in the Netherlands - or the next time you're in Europe - make a visit to the Catana boatyard in France. Maybe visit the Lagoon, FP, or Privlege yards as well. Ask them your questions. Enjoy their wine. Then consider a trip to OZ. Enjoy their beer! If you're in Brazil, visit the Dolphin yard. (I don't know what they drink.)

If you're gonna spend big money for a cat and you're concerned that you might be buying more weight than you want, yard visits are small investments to learn as much as you can. Alternatively, find a knowledgable yacht broker or two or three and pick their brains. You'll very likely have to deal with one eventually anyway.

When you're done with all this research, report back to us so we'll learn something.

By the way, are you considering new or used boats? I can't remember if you said. If you're planning to but a new boat, visiting the boatyard seems to be a no brainer to me BEFORE you lay any money down. JMHO

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Old 05-03-2008, 14:49   #18
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Hello Eleven
When we reduced weight from 6900 kilo to 5800 kilos empty but ready to sail we reduced sail area by 10 % and the mast was shortened by 5 feet or 1.50 meters
we will do so again when we are below 5000 kilo on hull number 6 in order to keep the cats safe. The nice advantage in shortening the mast and reducung sail is that we reduce weight again and where it counts most. .
Erik. It is no train smash to reduce a 10 ton catamaran to 6 tons if you use the right materials in one of the 2 best boatbuilding techniques Going from hand lamination to prepreg or Resin infusion and dropping gellcoat saves up to 2000 kilo,s on a 45 ft cat. If than you work on the complete interior and change from solid marine ply to infused foam or nomex honeycomb material another 1000 kilo,s can be saved , as stated before changing from sandwich glas to Lexan marguard saved 100 kilo,s changing from AGM batteries to Lithium Ion saved 240 kilo, making a extreme light weight Rigid inflatable saved 50 kilo,s but this also saved 50 kilo,s in the davits the toilets saved 50 kilo,s , the dyneema halyards saved 20 /30 kilo,s the dyneema trampoline saved 12 kilo,s , the dyneema safety lines 20 kilo,s changing to a buss electrical distribution system saved 120 kilo the purpose build compression beam saved some more having 6 integral tanks saved 150 kilo and I can just keep on going
We have a list of well over 600 items on which we saved weight, unfortunately all cost more money.
Greetings

Gideon
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Old 05-03-2008, 16:42   #19
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Gideon,

I realy don't mean to be a pain but I think that over the years all these high tech items will be replaced with 'normal' gear thereby adding a lot of weight to the boat and as a result defeat the purpose of the very expensive low weight construction. It would seem more logical to me to go the conventional way. Using tried and trusted technology and materials, save a lot of money to start off with, and sail away knowing that I can get adaquate replacement gear for my boat anywhere I stop. Different horses for different courses I guess, each person will have their own preference.

Erik.
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Old 05-03-2008, 17:54   #20
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the toilets saved 50 kilo,s
Hi Gideon,

I know I've brought this up before, but I'm still scratching my head figuring out how you saved 110 lbs on your toilet. My home toilet doesn't weigh that much and I know my porcelain Jabsco boat toilet weighs 11 kilos (24 lbs).

Are you stuffing 10 of them in there?

Mark
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Old 05-03-2008, 17:59   #21
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For eaxmple, by omitting a fancy wood trim part around every opening in the boat, like around drawers, doors etc, saving 200 kgs.

Worktops easily 20 kg saving by not using standard Corian.
Hi Alan,

Are you sure you don't have those two backwards? I think there would be way less than 200kg of wood trim and way more than 20kg of Corian on a 45' boat.

Mark
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Old 05-03-2008, 20:21   #22
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Erik -- 2Hulls has a good suggestion with regard to visiting builders. Make sure you set your built-in crap-detector to its highest setting, and filter/compare what you hear.

Also, since multihull performance is so sensitive to weight, I would strongly suggest that you make a contract conditional on the finished boat not exceeding the published weight specification (new or used) and get the boat weighed as a part of a pre-delivery survey.

I know of one person who found out the new catamaran he was buying came in more than 50% heavier than the builder's spec. He had this in his contract as a condition of sale and rightly refused delivery. He got his full deposit money back, even though the builder's attitude became indignant, but it could have turned into a legal battle if the builder was unethical or financially insolvent. So the other thing to be reminded from this is that it would reduce your risk to keep deposits in-escrow and let the builder use bank money, if that's possible.
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Old 05-03-2008, 21:21   #23
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Fastcats have a good attitude. Break the spiral by becoming lighter, needing smaller rigs, less sailing loads, allowing them to become lighter again. It is well worth the slight extra cost of the better quality materials and also avoid ridiculous furnishings. It is possible to go lighter still, using a design that further reduces sailing loads and the extra weight needed to handle these loads. One such method is to having freestanding masts. Going further, you can go to a Harryproa configuration that concentrates the sailing loads in a fairly small section of one hull. Check out the weight of a Visionarry and its accommodation in Harryproa.com (Lightship less than 3000kg for cruising version, about 2000kg for sports version with twin queen and a couple of single cabins, and about 15m in length. There is probably another few hundred Kg that can be removed fairly easily as the design refines.
A heavy boat is not necessarily a safer boat, as there is more inertia if it hits anything, and it is also deeper and more inclined to hit the bottom. Also, structural integrity is also about avoiding stress concentrations (such as overly square hatches and sharp corners, or excessive reinforcing that concentrates a load elsewhere). There are also hydrodynamic considerations that can add to stresses.
Personally, I feel much to much weight is added to a boat, and time, energy and money wasted trying to get a perfect finish. I would be curious as to the weight of the bog on many boats and the time and money spent on their finishes. I plan to have a finish that I am at home with, that of a fishing boat, though I will expend a lot of effort in getting the underwater parts efficient.
Robert
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Old 05-03-2008, 21:43   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik C View Post
Gideon,

I realy don't mean to be a pain but I think that over the years all these high tech items will be replaced with 'normal' gear thereby adding a lot of weight to the boat and as a result defeat the purpose of the very expensive low weight construction. It would seem more logical to me to go the conventional way. Using tried and trusted technology and materials, save a lot of money to start off with, and sail away knowing that I can get adaquate replacement gear for my boat anywhere I stop. Different horses for different courses I guess, each person will have their own preference.

Erik.
Hallo Eric

You are only a pain to your self,
I do not see how you would replace a hulll or deck with "normal gear"
Or all other items on board.This Untried technology as you call it already are being used by Boeing and Airbus and other industries for over 40 years.
Anyday you step into an aircraft you are trying out these so called new
Technologies .
I do not see Airbus throwing out carbon fiber and replace it with glass fiber.or nomex honeycomb and use solid aluminium as in the DC 3 was used.
Resin infusion has been around since the 50 s , Epoxy was first made in Germany in 1913 , remember the black phones made out of bakelite?
If Dyneema where not around now the oil companys would have a much harder time to keep drilling rigs in place in oceans where the depth is 4000 meters.Maybe you should trow away your computer or laptop and return to an abacus because the chinese have trusted these for thousends of years and they are also conventional.
Believe me , if among others Catana had the ability to produce in our way without raising the cost of their yachts and in France they would.
Why would a boat builder in their right state off mind bring out a new 46 ft cat With a weight of 16 tons as Catana advertise their new 46 ft cat ?
Any kilo saved is a kilo saved and increases the performance,payload,pointing ability and bridgedeck height.
If I hear you talk you should get a Lagoon 42 with old trusted diesels at +_ 13 ton and sail at a average speed of 5/6 knots.
Greetings and good luck with your new Lagoon.
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Old 05-03-2008, 21:57   #25
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Hi Gideon,

I know I've brought this up before, but I'm still scratching my head figuring out how you saved 110 lbs on your toilet. My home toilet doesn't weigh that much and I know my porcelain Jabsco boat toilet weighs 11 kilos (24 lbs).

Are you stuffing 10 of them in there?

Mark
Hallo mark stop scratching you might loose your hair and a bit of weight.
We use 2 electric toilets each under 3 kilo complete I have the Jabsco
catalog here and the lightest toilet they produce is 16 kilo , this is a smal bowl and it is without the pump , the lightest electric version is 28 kilo,s so if we had used the hand operated toilets our saving would have been 33 kilo but since these are electric the saving is 50 kilo,s I am really no interested if it is 48 or 50 the fact is that it saves weight.
If we can replace an item of 1 kilo for an item of 600 grams and have the same quality we will do so.
For instance , Our 5 winches have a total weigth of 31 kilo made by Holmatro or Harken .if these where made by Lewmar or anderson the weight would be double., 30 kilos extra is 0.5 % weight addition , you might think that is nothing but it adds up.
Greetings

Gideon
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Old 05-03-2008, 22:01   #26
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Hi Alan,

Are you sure you don't have those two backwards? I think there would be way less than 200kg of wood trim and way more than 20kg of Corian on a 45' boat.

Mark
Hallo Alan and Mark

we use Corian powder in our kitchen and bathroom modules at a total weight of 15 kilo 3 mm thick and it is sprayed in before we resin infuse it.
We use 110 squire meters of veneer in a FastCat 455 and 18 kilo,s of wooden trims, total weight is 64 kilo including the 8 kilo,s of contackt glue.

Greetings
Gideon
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Old 05-03-2008, 23:31   #27
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Hi Alan,

Are you sure you don't have those two backwards? I think there would be way less than 200kg of wood trim and way more than 20kg of Corian on a 45' boat.

Mark

No, I don't have the numbers backwards. If you reckon on trim around every hatch, draw, door, cupboard doors, portholes etc. you can get up in excess of 300 pieces - I didn't believe it myself, before actually counting them!

If you look at the fastcat pictures you will see limited use of this, that's why he can keep it down to 18 kgs.

The Corian figure is probably on the low side, but depends on worktop area.


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Old 05-03-2008, 23:49   #28
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Now I can see that using a different building method can save you a few kg per m2 of hull and by skimping on the interiour outfit you can save a few hundred kg more but that only accounts for the weight of maybe one car. What about the other three? To me ( a layman) that can only mean there must be a substantial difference in hull thickness and the structure of the bulkheads and crossbeams etc. etc. And if the CE certification requires that amount of material used they must have a good reason for that. .
Eric, this is not an issue of skimping on materials to save money! In fact a modern composite/sandwich layup is both stronger and stiffer than solid fibreglass. Traditional thinking is thicker is stronger, in fact a20 mm foam/glass composite at around 4 kg/m2 is stronger than 9 layers solid glass layup that weighs around 18 kg/m2 as far as i remember. (Can find you the actual figures).

CE certification is like all things created by bureaucrats - gives you something that is not optimum, but will work. They don't make allowances for different materials, but just base it on the cheapest glass, and add a large safety factor.


These build methods are not new, but only in the last few years, has the boat industry started to use them. If you check out a moderne wind turbine, the blades are made in this manner, and have been for the last 20 years. Very few accidents happen, and when they do, its normally a geabox seizure that causes it. The blades are incredibly strong and work at incredible tip speeds for the 124 m diameter 5 MW rigs that are coming out now.

I suggest that you actually try sailing a light boat and a heavy boat in light winds (less than 10 knots) then you will understand the difference. You can always decrease sail, but its hard to get a slow boat moving faster in lighter air.

But if you don't mind motoring a bit more, and the sailing is not so important, then go for a standard roomaran, they are cheaper, and easier to sell at the end of the day.

It all depends on what you want to do....


Regards

Alan
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:31   #29
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Hi Eric,
I can not give you a response about weight that is as scientific as those of Gideon, 2hulls and others - great instructive posts by the way- but just going into several boats looking at the thickness of cupboard and other doors, the accommodation, the amount of showers, holding tanks and toilets eg - you will realise where the extra weight is coming from. Not having all this I believe is not skimping but building a boat for a pupose - transporting 2-4 people safely and fast over long distances. As for the Lightwave 45 sports I think that it is not a boat that is attractive for the charter market; as an example the second shower/toilet is an extra.
At Lightwave they are now building a 45 Grande that has more and bigger accommodation and extras that at least we did not want on our boat but is closer to what you would expect on a french production boat. We had a look at The Grande in the factory next to the 45 sports and did not like it a bit.
As usual it comes down to what you expect your boat to do for you and what might make a boat great for you might be to heavy, to light, to spartan to luxurious to whatever for the next.
What helped us to make a decision is owning a cheaper older boat (33 foot Crowther cat) for a year and realising what we really needed and what not.
good luck
Nils
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:16   #30
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Hi Erik, suggest you contact the Lightwave folks and ask them. I know they do use lightweight foam panels throughout, no plywood at all. Having climbed over the boats at a couple of boat shows, I know the boats do include the creature comforts, but no fiddles for example on shelving unless owner specifies. To date I haven't sailed one, and wouldn't contemplate handing over a stash of hard earned without some sailing time. I do suspect the 6500kg is bare minimum though for the basic boat, no ground tackle, gen set, smaller engine option, etc they do provide a number of interior models as well, so i guess you would really need the data for the interior you want. I will be interested to understand the difference as well

Glenn



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