Planning For A Survey?

[KP44]

I'd say, get the cheapest surveyor that your financer or insurance company will accept.

If you want to know about the boat, inspect it yourself. Or have a couple experienced sailors inspect the boat with you.

My SAMS surveyor got everything wrong. Said the radio didn't work because he didn't turn it on. The length was off by 9 feet. The anchor rode was wrong chain size. Even the engine was wrong.
To give credit where it is due, SAMS said they would censure the surveyor if I made a formal complaint.

It was a good lesson to learn. If you want to know about your boat, inspect it yourself. Some guy walking around with a little hammer is fine for insurance.

[Captain Anthony]

Ahoy, I have been searching for a boat for retirement for 2 years. I had 2 boats surveyed by credentialed surveyors. One was fantastic ( he wouldn't travel to the second boats location), the second one was a waste of my money. He did a very poor job once he spotted damage ( at the one quarter way through the survey) that kept me from purchasing the boat he delivered a really poor report.

My advice, do not take a broker recommendation. Additionally, I strongly urge you to get at least one, better with 2 or 3 recommendations for the same surveyor.

Sail boats in general are selling at a very slow pace. Most boats take a year to sell. I have looked at a number of boats near my location. The owner's have really no idea of the "market" , so to speak. Most owners think that they have gold, lol. Reality is, do a self survey of the real value or have your broker tell you what the average selling price of the boat is in your general location. Once the owner "feels enough pain" so to speak, the selling price "usually" drops. For those owners who do not drop their price, well, they are still paying storage fees and will continue to do so.

[Cadence]

The longer a boat is on the market the price seems to plummet. It could be bad surveys or just location. The initial listing price seems to be in fantasy land about two times reality. The maintenance an storage cost gets to the seller. Moral of the story don't jump. There will always be another boat,


If you go by pic from a broker look closely. Are they current or good enough to see what condition a teak deck is in just as an example.

[ranger58sb]

Don't see where anyone mentioned it, but forgive if this is a repeat...

Recommend TWO surveys. The marine survey is hull/rigging/systems, etc. The other is a mechanical survey -- engines -- ideally done by a specialist in that brand/model of engine, e.g., a certified mechanic for that particular marque.

-Chris

[scarlet]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Don't see where anyone mentioned it, but forgive if this is a repeat...

Recommend TWO surveys. The marine survey is hull/rigging/systems, etc. The other is a mechanical survey -- engines -- ideally done by a specialist in that brand/model of engine, e.g., a certified mechanic for that particular marque.

-Chris

I'm so glad this got mentioned. I had NO idea that a regular boat surveyor wouldn't do all of it.

As I've been doing preliminary research over the last 4 years or so.. looking at tons of boats on line... and also checking them out when in Fort Lauderdale, etc... I find one major similarity between buying a boat, and buying a house. When looking at houses, you look at the photos on line, and they look really good, so you go see them and quickly discover that they had a REALLY good photographer take the pictures!! lol... same with boats. I know how to spot the stock photos (btw.. I think they should require that those are identified as stock photos, IMHO) But, we've seen several boats on line, and in person that had authentic photos posted, and let me tell you... they hid a LOT of wear and tear.. damage... yuck.. by the way they angled the photo.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by scarlet

I'm so glad this got mentioned. I had NO idea that a regular boat surveyor wouldn't do all of it.

As I've been doing preliminary research over the last 4 years or so.. looking at tons of boats on line... and also checking them out when in Fort Lauderdale, etc... I find one major similarity between buying a boat, and buying a house. When looking at houses, you look at the photos on line, and they look really good, so you go see them and quickly discover that they had a REALLY good photographer take the pictures!! lol... same with boats. I know how to spot the stock photos (btw.. I think they should require that those are identified as stock photos, IMHO) But, we've seen several boats on line, and in person that had authentic photos posted, and let me tell you... they hid a LOT of wear and tear.. damage... yuck.. by the way they angled the photo.

It appears many photos or not current taken when a boat was in its prime. I think you can find an honest broker if the pics show things needing attention. At least you can get an idea of whether it's worth a look see.
I like the pics with the place mats and wine glasses on the galley table and the fancy pillows on the bunks.

[scarlet]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I like the pics with the place mats and wine glasses on the galley table and the fancy pillows on the bunks.

I actually like those photos, too. It's the same as staging a house (which I can attest makes a HUGE difference when selling your home). I guess I see it this way... if someone will take the time to decorate their boat to sell it.. they probably are thoughtful and meticulous people... Not that it will make me buy their boat.. but it will cause me to take a closer look. I just like attention to detail.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by scarlet

I actually like those photos, too. It's the same as staging a house (which I can attest makes a HUGE difference when selling your home). I guess I see it this way... if someone will take the time to decorate their boat to sell it.. they probably are thoughtful and meticulous people... Not that it will make me buy their boat.. but it will cause me to take a closer look. I just like attention to detail.

I think most of the staging is the broker. I'm not sure that you can't follow the matts and wine glasses from boat to boat. On the converse side are the pics that look like a $hit house. If a seller can't be bothered to pick up junk, it makes you what else has been neglected.
I agree the staging is important probably with the fearer sex when it comes to the wine glasses on the galley table. A coaster and a can of beer suits me.

[sailandfish]

I am a surveyor, and also have been a boat buyer in a position similar to yours. Here are my thoughts:

1. Making a single trip to perform your own initial inspection, and then within a couple of days coordinating a sales contract + survey/ haulout is not realistic.

2. You can save a lot of money and time traveling looking at boat by: getting a surveyor to perform a brief inspection. Don't request a full survey of any kind. You want the surveyor to go basically be a photographer. Ask for about 200+ general photos, and a brief email description of conditions. This will tell you if the boat looks like it has been well maintained. You will find that the vast majority of used cats are grosly misrepresented in sales listings.

3. Now you had a brief pre- inspection performed. You make an offer contingent on survey. Once offer is accepted you plan all of the logistics of survey/ haulout/ sea trial.

4. Selecting your surveyor:
- the surveyor who does the initial pre inspection just needs to be a good photographer, and able to give a decent general overview. Nothing special.
- if you are shopping in the US/ Carib make sure the surveyor is NAMS or SAMS certified, otherwise your insurance company may not accept the report.
- if shopping in Europe there are other credentials such as IIMS.
- Use Google, personal reference, etc. To find options. In FL there are way too many surveyors, it's overwhelming. Down island there's not a lot of selection. You may wish to fly your surveyor in to town. Talk to many different surveyors. Ask them what they do, what their background is, etc.
- Many surveyors make their living off of primarily insurance/ financing surveys for relatively ignorant/ uninterested buyers. If you talk to the surveyor ahead of time they may get tired of your questions and elect not to work with you.
- Surveyors are either generalist or specialists... No one is an expert of everything, most surveyors claim to be experts of everything.
- You can't/ won't find someone who is an expert in hull laminates, and rigging, and the engine... Despite what everyone claims.
- If the rigging is approaching 7-10 years old just budget to replace it. - after the deal is done you can work out the finer details with your rigger/ insurance company.
- Get a rigger to do a rigging survey, don't even bother your surveyor with that unless you want him to feel rushed.
- Are you deathly afraid of delamination? Seek out a Surveyor who will thermal image the whole boat. This will more than double the survey cost, and add a half day extra to the process. Any surveyor who does it all at the same time is feeding you BS. Boat has to dry out before it can be imaged. Takes time/ fancy tools which cost money. Be aware many surveyors market thermal imaging, most are doing it as an add on gimick. Look for someone who is a certified thermographer.
- The best surveyor will miss stuff. Your Surveyor is an extra set of independent eyes. Not Superman with x Ray vision. Again talk to the surveyor, try to be comfortable with them. During the survey don't crowd your Surveyor, let him do his work, but do ask to be engaged, and make sure he shows you the highlights before everyone leaves. Not all surveyors have great reporting skills. But if you can be shown the problems in person you'll have the best understanding/ report you can get.
- there's a couple/ one surveyor who is regularly recommended on this site and by all FL multihull brokers.... Be very weary. Same for Surveyors working for the bareboat companies.

[Drmanso]

Thanks for your very informative post.
I found it full of practical, doable advice.

[scarlet]

Originally Posted by sailandfish

I am a surveyor, and also have been a boat buyer in a position similar to yours. Here are my thoughts:

1. Making a single trip to perform your own initial inspection, and then within a couple of days coordinating a sales contract + survey/ haulout is not realistic.

2. You can save a lot of money and time traveling looking at boat by: getting a surveyor to perform a brief inspection. Don't request a full survey of any kind. You want the surveyor to go basically be a photographer. Ask for about 200+ general photos, and a brief email description of conditions. This will tell you if the boat looks like it has been well maintained. You will find that the vast majority of used cats are grosly misrepresented in sales listings.

3. Now you had a brief pre- inspection performed. You make an offer contingent on survey. Once offer is accepted you plan all of the logistics of survey/ haulout/ sea trial.

4. Selecting your surveyor:
- the surveyor who does the initial pre inspection just needs to be a good photographer, and able to give a decent general overview. Nothing special.
- if you are shopping in the US/ Carib make sure the surveyor is NAMS or SAMS certified, otherwise your insurance company may not accept the report.
- if shopping in Europe there are other credentials such as IIMS.
- Use Google, personal reference, etc. To find options. In FL there are way too many surveyors, it's overwhelming. Down island there's not a lot of selection. You may wish to fly your surveyor in to town. Talk to many different surveyors. Ask them what they do, what their background is, etc.
- Many surveyors make their living off of primarily insurance/ financing surveys for relatively ignorant/ uninterested buyers. If you talk to the surveyor ahead of time they may get tired of your questions and elect not to work with you.
- Surveyors are either generalist or specialists... No one is an expert of everything, most surveyors claim to be experts of everything.
- You can't/ won't find someone who is an expert in hull laminates, and rigging, and the engine... Despite what everyone claims.
- If the rigging is approaching 7-10 years old just budget to replace it. - after the deal is done you can work out the finer details with your rigger/ insurance company.
- Get a rigger to do a rigging survey, don't even bother your surveyor with that unless you want him to feel rushed.
- Are you deathly afraid of delamination? Seek out a Surveyor who will thermal image the whole boat. This will more than double the survey cost, and add a half day extra to the process. Any surveyor who does it all at the same time is feeding you BS. Boat has to dry out before it can be imaged. Takes time/ fancy tools which cost money. Be aware many surveyors market thermal imaging, most are doing it as an add on gimick. Look for someone who is a certified thermographer.
- The best surveyor will miss stuff. Your Surveyor is an extra set of independent eyes. Not Superman with x Ray vision. Again talk to the surveyor, try to be comfortable with them. During the survey don't crowd your Surveyor, let him do his work, but do ask to be engaged, and make sure he shows you the highlights before everyone leaves. Not all surveyors have great reporting skills. But if you can be shown the problems in person you'll have the best understanding/ report you can get.
- there's a couple/ one surveyor who is regularly recommended on this site and by all FL multihull brokers.... Be very weary. Same for Surveyors working for the bareboat companies.

So, at what time would you suggest going to look at the boat?

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Drmanso

Thanks for your very informative post.
I found it full of practical, doable advice.

I did too, which is why I sent him a PM asking for a recommendations of a certified surveyor he'd be comfortable recommending specifically for multihulls!

[sailandfish]

Sorry I did not respond to your PM. I got the email, but cannot figure out how to respond.

- When to actually look at the boat? - Whenever you want. But you may find that after flying all over the place looking at misrepresented boats it will be cheaper to send a local. If real time independent information still looks good then I'd say make your offer and move forward. No sense in travelling to kick the tires if the seller/ buyer are at unrealistic odds on price. Travelling to look at boats to buy gets old and is very expensive.

- Can I recommend a surveyor. No. - I would stop looking for a multihull specific surveyor. There is not enough catamaran sales volume in a specific region to make any one surveyor a guru- (except for those surveyors I already stated should be avoided). Instead focus on a surveyor that knows boats/ construction/ systems. Multihulls are only unique in that the production boats are generally poorly built compared to say sport fishing boats/ other types of vessels. A surveyor who is knowledgeable in laminates, and marine systems will figure the boat out even if he is perhaps a powerboat expert.

- Spend some weekends reading publications such as practical owner/ professional boat builder/ etc. about delamination, cored hulls, rigging, electrical installations, etc. and soon you will have more than enough knowledge to be dangerous. Don't believe everything you read on forums, too much misinformation/ opinion.

[LeeV]

Not a problem; at the bottom of your Private Message page is the Reply function, but it's not necessary.

I've sailed multihulls for a very long time, known several of the original desingers and owned 3 different kind of trimaran. Been around surveyors and riggers and machine/oil analysts and know enough not to trust 1 or the bunch! :-) There are some very poor surveyors and then there are some who really take their time, examine the entire boat over several hours and write a thoughtful, cogent survey. I have examples of both ends of the spectrum.

As for my indication of our "final" or "retirement" boat, that was only to mean that I want one of the thorough surveyors when I wind up finding one that's passed my survey, not that I'm relying on them to secure a perfect retirement vessel.

Your original email made me think you had a recommendation for multis = my misunderstanding. Nonetheless I appreciate your wisdom. We travel for family reasons back and forth from the Chesapeake Bay to Florida, so we're surrounded by boats, and attend both the Annapolis and Miami shows (only to drool!). When it comes time I'll check for resumes and recommendations to find one.

Thanks!

[scarlet]

Originally Posted by Biomed

Hi Scarlet, much good advice to start you off, here is another suggestion: D.H Pascoe marine surveyor. Google it and it will direct you to his website.

Thank you! I book marked his site, and will start to work slowly through it.