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Old 19-05-2010, 21:43   #1
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Picking My New Home

Well hello all, I have been on here reading for a few years now but this is my first post and i am going to pick a topic that gets talked about alot. Picking my new home. I am hoping for you guys to mention some new boats I have not looked at in enough detail yet so here is my wish list.
Beachable
Encloseable cockpit
Hard dodger with solar panels
all lines lead to cockpit
being able to see over the saloon deck roof
CE certified category A
No slapping (30" min it seems?)
I believe direct drive motors will be more reliable then saildrives.
yanmar diesels
no balsa core
skegged rudders
ability for 2 oversize anchors
rub rails
the davit system must lift the dingy with outboard attached
davit system with more solar panels would be nice
watermaker would be nice
I would be very interested in reading why anyone does not believe any item on my list is important I might not agree but value others opinions.

Since I know location and use matters alot Ill give it a try.
I believe we will be sunchasers following the wind where it blows I want the ability to cross oceans and stay where its warm and sunny and the rum is cheap
I dont want to rely on diesel fuel I dont want to dock.
It does seem inconvenient that you need 3 types of fuel for a liveaboard not sure if there is a way around this (diesel unleaded and propane)

So at the risk of starting two topics what boats seem to meet what I am looking for and what items will I find not that important for a serious cruiser?
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Old 19-05-2010, 21:52   #2
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you don't need oversize anchors...

Quote:
Originally Posted by proeliator View Post
ability for 2 oversize anchors
...because if they're the right size they're plenty big, and if they're not the right size then they're undersized.

especially on a cat.
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Old 19-05-2010, 22:01   #3
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good point
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Old 19-05-2010, 22:14   #4
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Originally Posted by proeliator View Post
good point
on my boat, a monohull, I keep a primary anchor, a stern anchor, and a storm anchor. The primary is a 25 kilo Rocna, the stern anchor is a Fortress FX-37, and the storm anchor is a Fortress Fx-55.

I'm probably carrying less weight than you would with two oversized anchors, and yet I'm ready for virtually any cruising situation.
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Old 20-05-2010, 07:16   #5
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Proeliator, many of the items on your 'wish list' can be retrofitted to cats that otherwise meet your design requirements - i.e., apart from the 30 inch bridgedeck clearance, direct drive and yanmar diesels. For example, you can add a hardtop bimini/cockpit enclosure and watermaker to virtually any cat and, any cat with bridgedeck accomodation which is large enough to reach that clearance will certainly be able to carry appropriate ground tackle.

Indeed, in an effort to find the 'perfect cat', I would actually steer away from fixating on direct drive versus saildrive and even a 30 inch minimum for bridgedeck clearance - you will, IMO, unnecessarily limit your search. For example, appropriate bridgedeck clearance varies not only with LOA, but also beam and the shape of the tunnel. I have no idea what price range you are looking at, but Mantas would meet your criteria of a good visibility form the helm, a solid bimini, available cockpit enclosure, reasonable performance (including offshore), sensible/easy running rigging and, while they have considerably less than 30 inch bridgedeck clearance, a relatively decent motion (the Eric Lerouge tunnel shape and reasonable beam being significant factors here).

You have also not specified whether you are looking to buy new or used; if new, then you will, of course, have a very good prospect of finding (or having built) a boat that meets all of your criteria. If these are in fact fixed criteria, without knowing your budget, the only production boat which immediately comes to mind is the Antares 44 (and somehow I suspect that this is the very boat that you have in mind).


Brad
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Old 20-05-2010, 08:40   #6
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i'm curious why "no balsa core" since it seems to be industry standard on high end production cats?
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Old 20-05-2010, 09:13   #7
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Proeliator: I've also been shopping for a "Home" and I completely agree with all of your priorities. Brad is right, it sounds like you are describing the Antares 44, which is certainly on the top of my list!
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Old 20-05-2010, 10:16   #8
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i'm curious why "no balsa core" since it seems to be industry standard on high end production cats?
I have owned a boat with balsa core and have seen first hand what happens when a wood that rots easy gets exposed to moisture and before you even know you have damage you have a big problem, I am a wood worker and it just seems to be something to avoid (about like the black plague)
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Old 20-05-2010, 11:37   #9
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Using end grain balsa is quite common for the topsides and decks of cats, even some quite high end ones. Others use various foams. You're not going to find many cats without some sort of core, simply because of the weight savings.

The problem of course, is that the foam cores have their set of problems, too.

Otherwise, your list certainly has a number of desirable features. What's your budget look like, since that will greatly determine how many of them you can actually include?

I would also like to second Brad's comments on the bridgedeck issue and I have a couple things to stress about it. First, it is more complex than just the number of inches. Shape, protrusions, how far the deck extends forward, hull shape and beam, all interact in this. Our boat has relatively "low" clearance (according to the "formulas" and "wisdom"), yet performs quite nicely. The shape of the underdeck is such that it deflects water nicely. We have the advantage of much lower windage than many cats, which improves windward performance and docking when the breeze is kicking up. There are trade-offs and I guess that I'm suggesting for you to look at the boat as a whole package and not just at a single variable. Second, all cats are going to slap and pound, at least some, if the conditions are right. The bottom line is that with their light hulls, cats are pretty noisy sailors. When you have waves hitting the hull from the beam, or having them hitting under the deck, or simply just fast water going by when you're sailing at 12+ knots -- you'll hear it and feel it far more than on a heavy mono going along at 6 to 7. They all tend to have certain points of sail and speeds where that is worse and better -- it's a matter of learning your boat and adjusting accordingly.

Couple of other comments. Rub-rails: Absolutely. I love mine, even though I try really hard not to use them! There are a surprising number of cats that don't have them and after a few years of use, you can see the difference in the various shades of gelcoat patches.

Sail drives: At first, I thought the same. I was quite skeptical, but this boat has them, anyway. After a few years with them, I've concluded that they aren't that big a deal. Water flows past them easier. They don't have all the running gear you have to worry about. The seals have gotten very reliable, so I don't worry about them. They're not that hard to work on -- the annual maintenance really takes only a couple of hours. So long as you're properly propped, you should get good life out of them. So, while I still agree with you in theory and in my "completely uncompromised 'ideal' cat" I would still have shafts; in the real world, I wouldn't make that a deal-breaker.

Good luck in your search! There aren't that many cats up here in the PacNW, but there are a few -- some here on CF. I'd suggest offering to crew and that will get you some real life exposure to them.

ID
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Old 20-05-2010, 21:16   #10
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Brd It seems you are a sharp cookie for several things you said let me work down my "wish list" so you guys can see my logic.
#1 Beachable being able to do repairs cleaning etc at low tide instead of marina saves $$ also things that go bump in the night are alot better with short keels down there.
#2 Encloseable cockpit I have been out when the wind chill brings it below freezing so this just pratical but I really am not sure that its usefull in the climate I would like to be in and my wife dosent like cold weather.
#3 Hard dodger with solar I dont want to need to use diesel to make electricity I want enough power for freezer autopilot lights light watermaker use.( i need to get a better idea how much solar and batteries this would take to make practial)
#4 All lines to the cockpit when the weather gets bad I want to sit back undercover and drink my starbucks. ( I realise most of you have given up on starbucks I chose to marry a barista)
#5 CE certified ca A well there standards seem like a good idea.
#6 will say minimum lapping some boats are know to be kettle drums.
#7 DD vs saildrive DD is more efficent less parts and when you do smack something they dont put a hole in your boat, I suppose this can be given up since to there plus they put the engines out of the boat and are in better watertight compartments. (do they make them swivel)?
#8 Yanmars parts seem to be the simplest and most common to get anywhere. (shame i'd prefer cummins)
#9 Balsa It is a real problem when it gets moisture.
#10 Skegged rudders only lost one rudder and one prop on my other sailboats the protection would have been nice to have.
#11 The boats used for tourist vacation condos seem to be undersized.
#12 Rub rails I have smacked the side of my boat more then once myself
#13 davits I suppose most boats are so equipped.
#14 adding solar to a dingy arch I suppose can be done to any boat?
#15 watermaker seems like something very usefull but reliablity seems lacking..
addressing Brads comments
How to tell if the boat slaps ....hard to do with out honest people on here giving real feedback. Id love a new Antares but that would require alot more time before I get on the water.
I will for sure take a close look at a Manta.
Drifter,
I wish there was a perfect core some of the foam seem better then the balsa but both can be bad to repair but not able to rot would make me feel better.
As for crewing I have tried several times no luck unless I want to be on a mono, but I want to be on a cat and I can count on 1 hand how many I can see sailing the coast around Seattle. Id love the chance to be on a cat.
Mike
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Old 21-05-2010, 00:40   #11
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Just about all cats are beachable.
Even if not "factory", you can enclose just about any cockpit. Just a matter of designing the enclosure well.
Hardtops are nice, but heavy. A good frame with Sunbrella or other tough fabric is just as functional and much lighter. Doesn't make a difference as far as solar panels are concerned.
All lines to cockpit is nice, but lines at the mast isn't a big deal. It is less friction and fewer blocks and stuff to break (and they will, and it will be at the most inconvenient time, I promise you).
CE "A" -- of course.
Yanmars are fine. Tough, reliable, somewhat less expensive than Volvos, but not significantly.
Charter boats tend to have more cabins, smaller heads, less storage, less tankage. Not a big deal for the charter trade, but not helpful for liveaboard cruising. They usually need lots of upgrading for that use.
Just about all have functional davits. Some of them have had problems with being undersized or not well mounted. Personally, I think the best ones are built into arches.
Watermakers are like anything else on a saltwater boat -- it must be maintained and it will eventually break, anyway. The critical element with them is gph production for amp/hrs used to get it.

Antares are wonderful boats. Expensive and not many of them, though. There are lots of great boats, though. Keep an open mind. Mantas are also thoughtfully designed and well constructed. There's one for sale in Bellingham (Ninja, great boat, kept in tiptop condition).

Our boat, a St. Francis 44, is presently in the yard in Port Townsend getting maintenance, but will be in Seattle next month. Give me a PM sometime and I'll be happy to take you out.

ID
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Old 21-05-2010, 01:38   #12
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Quote:
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on my boat, a monohull, I keep a primary anchor, a stern anchor, and a storm anchor. The primary is a 25 kilo Rocna, the stern anchor is a Fortress FX-37, and the storm anchor is a Fortress Fx-55.
I did not have good luck with the Fortress anchors with my trimaran. It sails at anchor too much (even with a bridle) and eventually twists it out of the mud. I started with Fortress because of the light weight. Very happy with my Delta even though it's heavy.
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Old 21-05-2010, 03:34   #13
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Build it yourself

Good Day Proeliator,

You are 31years old and a woodworker, so I presume you have average to excellent hand skills. You also seem to have a good grip on what would be a first class world cruiser, So why not build your own. You would probably have to pick an Australian or Kiwi designer who would allow the flexibility of fit out required.

Good luck and regards,
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Old 21-05-2010, 08:59   #14
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Good Day Proeliator,

You are 31years old and a woodworker, so I presume you have average to excellent hand skills. You also seem to have a good grip on what would be a first class world cruiser, So why not build your own. You would probably have to pick an Australian or Kiwi designer who would allow the flexibility of fit out required.

Good luck and regards,
OOO Have I considered this I even have the shop space and all the tools needed but I am not sure that I can build a Hull type I would want to spend the next 20
years on... I am also a ways from the water how do you take a boat thats 22 esh feet wide and get it to the water....hmmmm
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Old 21-05-2010, 13:38   #15
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Habitability

Quote:
Originally Posted by proeliator View Post
Well hello all, I have been on here reading for a few years now but this is my first post and i am going to pick a topic that gets talked about alot. Picking my new home. I am hoping for you guys to mention some new boats I have not looked at in enough detail yet so here is my wish list.
Beachable
Encloseable cockpit
Hard dodger with solar panels
all lines lead to cockpit
being able to see over the saloon deck roof
CE certified category A
No slapping (30" min it seems?)
I believe direct drive motors will be more reliable then saildrives.
yanmar diesels
no balsa core
skegged rudders
ability for 2 oversize anchors
rub rails
the davit system must lift the dingy with outboard attached
davit system with more solar panels would be nice
watermaker would be nice
I would be very interested in reading why anyone does not believe any item on my list is important I might not agree but value others opinions.

Since I know location and use matters alot Ill give it a try.
I believe we will be sunchasers following the wind where it blows I want the ability to cross oceans and stay where its warm and sunny and the rum is cheap
I dont want to rely on diesel fuel I dont want to dock.
It does seem inconvenient that you need 3 types of fuel for a liveaboard not sure if there is a way around this (diesel unleaded and propane)

So at the risk of starting two topics what boats seem to meet what I am looking for and what items will I find not that important for a serious cruiser?
It seems you've got the makings of a great dream boat, but what about habitability? Owners Suite and the galley?

If I were to "live on a boat", one of the areas that I would make sure was the way I liked it was the bed, you spend a considerable amount of time there. And I think its important to get a good nights sleep some of the time.

I noticed an "island" bed on the SeaWind 1160, which allowed a couple to sleep comfortably and not have to disturb the other when one has to get out of bed in the middle of the night. Its seems that few designers really care if you've got to roll over some one to get out of the bed.

Any one know of other Cats with Island Beds?

Thanks Sail 73
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