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Old 27-04-2008, 10:31   #106
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Absolutely a good designer - they are probably not far off the mark. But, the question was if they were computer generated or actually verified, and my suggestion was that they probably aren't all verified.

Regards

Alan
Hallo Alan
the polars made by Angelo are computer generated and most conditions are verified in actual sailing conditions, the cat actually performed better than expected.
Greetings

Gideon
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Old 27-04-2008, 10:37   #107
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Just a correction here Alan
When we launched hull 003 of the FastCat 435 the total weight was 5900 kilo including full airco , heating , 240 kilo generator water maker, hard top bimini, 7 solar panels etc etc
A ready to sail 435 without all these extra,s will be below 5000 kilo,
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Old 27-04-2008, 10:41   #108
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Originally Posted by David M View Post
Gideon or mamo,
Could you please explain what the ARC requirements are, what this means and why FastCats do not qualify? Which boats do qualify? What does this mean with regards to safety?
Hallo David, All FastCats qualify to join the ARC and hull number 004 is written in to join.
Next year I expect to have 3 or 4 FastCats join in the ARC including the Green Motion version.
All needed is a big wallet and lots of safety equipment to join
Greetings

Gideon
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Old 27-04-2008, 14:27   #109
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Gideon,

may i suggest that you then give Mamo the actual light displacement figure for the 435,(as defined by all the other suppliers, no options or liquids etc) as this is verified, and then let him use that figure and add the 1800 kgs like for all the other boats. Then we get figures that are comparable. My understanding is that no 455's are in service yet, so let's stick with the 435, as you have 4 in service i think.

May I also suggest, that when you go out and verify certain data points of the computer generated polars, that you add these to the polar diagrams, as it will make them more credible. Everyone understands that you don't do that for all angles/wind conditions and displacements...


Will there be 3 or 4 Fastcats in the ARC next year? That's around 60% -80% of your total production to date!!

Will be interesting to see actual times and the spread between the different boats.

Regards

Alan
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Old 28-04-2008, 08:21   #110
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Thanks for the update Dave.

When I compare your speeds to my FP Tobago, then they are only marginally better. I must say that I expected at least 30-50% higher speeds.
The Tobago will do 10 knots at 37 degrees with a TWS of 19-20 knots with mainsail (38 m2) and non standard self tacking jib (16m2).
Alan - you expected >12 kts at 30 - 35 degrees apparent in 15 - 20 TWS?

No, my boat will not perform quite that well and I suspect very few cruising cats can. Really can - not somebody's predicted polars.

I can probably see 12+ falling off to 37 apparent at 19-20 in not-too-choppy water.

IMHO there's too much attention on top end sustained speed. In reality, for cruising cats, there's so much more to throw into the mix. Catana recommends max sustained top end speed of 15kts - although the boats will easily do more, who wants to be uncomfortable? These are world voyagers - not triangle racers.

Mamo - my boat wasn't splashed last weekend as I had hoped, so I do not have a load cell reading for you. The yard now says this Thursday, so we'll see. I did confirm my main is 90m2, genoa is 60m2, and sym chute is 140m2. Suggest you factor into your spreadsheet whether boats have boards. Also think of including fuel/water/refrigeration/amp hour capacities or other stuff really important for cruisers.

Now for something really important - I bet my owner's hull head/shower area is the biggest of any similar length cruising cat.

Dave
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Old 28-04-2008, 10:53   #111
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IMHO there's too much attention on top end sustained speed. In reality, for cruising cats, there's so much more to throw into the mix
True dat!

Quote:
Now for something really important - I bet my owner's hull head/shower area is the biggest of any similar length cruising cat
I find that I have space to burn so my shower alone is about 4' x 5'. It's a shame that so often liveaboards on catamarans are stuck with charter boat interiors that sport a tiny galley, tiny nav station, 4 tiny heads, and seat 12 for cocktails.

Mike
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Old 28-04-2008, 11:54   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Alan - you expected >12 kts at 30 - 35 degrees apparent in 15 - 20 TWS?

No, my boat will not perform quite that well and I suspect very few cruising cats can. Really can - not somebody's predicted polars.

I can probably see 12+ falling off to 37 apparent at 19-20 in not-too-choppy water.

IMHO there's too much attention on top end sustained speed. In reality, for cruising cats, there's so much more to throw into the mix. Catana recommends max sustained top end speed of 15kts - although the boats will easily do more, who wants to be uncomfortable? These are world voyagers - not triangle racers.

Mamo - my boat wasn't splashed last weekend as I had hoped, so I do not have a load cell reading for you. The yard now says this Thursday, so we'll see. I did confirm my main is 90m2, genoa is 60m2, and sym chute is 140m2. Suggest you factor into your spreadsheet whether boats have boards. Also think of including fuel/water/refrigeration/amp hour capacities or other stuff really important for cruisers.

Now for something really important - I bet my owner's hull head/shower area is the biggest of any similar length cruising cat.

Dave
What shall we bet Dave ? a good bottle of Wine and whomever wins we will drink the wine together !!
I agree the Cata 417 has a good sized bathroom and shower but I do not think it is a match the FastCat 435 / 455
The Shower is 1.05 x 1.29 or 3 ft 6 in x 4 ft 4 in and the separate bathroom is 1.22 x 1.50 or 4 ft 1 in x 5 ft

Greetings

P.S. I am already looking forward to having that wine with you

Gideon
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Old 28-04-2008, 12:11   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Gideon,

may i suggest that you then give Mamo the actual light displacement figure for the 435,(as defined by all the other suppliers, no options or liquids etc) as this is verified, and then let him use that figure and add the 1800 kgs like for all the other boats. Then we get figures that are comparable. My understanding is that no 455's are in service yet, so let's stick with the 435, as you have 4 in service i think.

May I also suggest, that when you go out and verify certain data points of the computer generated polars, that you add these to the polar diagrams, as it will make them more credible. Everyone understands that you don't do that for all angles/wind conditions and displacements...


Will there be 3 or 4 Fastcats in the ARC next year? That's around 60% -80% of your total production to date!!

Will be interesting to see actual times and the spread between the different boats.

Regards

Alan
Hallo Alan

the Light displacement for both the 435 and 455 is 4800 kilo or 10500 lbs
This is ready to sail no extra,s no water no diesel in the boat.
The first 455 will be launched on May 8 or 9 th .
see picture
We are finishing of hull number 4 , 5 , 6 and 7 and in the new factory where we are moving to next week the production will go up to 12 untis per year of the model 455 so by next year we will have around 12 in the water.
I will send you detaild info on the Basalt fiber tomorrow after my return from Paris another nice feature of the basalt fiber , the resin absorbtion is lower than with glass fiber , a saving or 12 % so far.
; ; ;
Greetings

Gideon
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Old 28-04-2008, 12:38   #114
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What shall we bet Dave ? a good bottle of Wine and whomever wins we will drink the wine together !!
I agree the Cata 417 has a good sized bathroom and shower but I do not think it is a match the FastCat 435 / 455
The Shower is 1.05 x 1.29 or 3 ft 6 in x 4 ft 4 in and the separate bathroom is 1.22 x 1.50 or 4 ft 1 in x 5 ft

Greetings

P.S. I am already looking forward to having that wine with you

Gideon
OK Gideon, I'll have to do some measuring because I do not know exactly what the measurements are on my boat. I do know that I have more room than some other 471s because the washer/dryer was not placed in the head suite. What I do know for sure is that the shower can accomodate 2 in comfort and 4 in ecstasy and I have 210 gallons of water.

Dave
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Old 28-04-2008, 12:39   #115
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Hallo Alan

the Light displacement for both the 435 and 455 is 4800 kilo or 10500 lbs
This is ready to sail no extra,s no water no diesel in the boat.
The first 455 will be launched on May 8 or 9 th .
see picture


Gideon

Gideon: Nice looking boat! When do you think you will be building the first 55 Fastcat? How much do figure that will price out at?

Keegan
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Old 28-04-2008, 16:58   #116
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In my opinion Multihull Polar diagrams are notoriously unreliable but are the best we have for comparing performance. Not only does load, fouling, prop type and sail age have an impact but trim is critical. Compare one sail performance without telltales and then stick them on - you suddenly gain up to a know by trimming correct. And who does polars in a wind tunnel! Surface air temp, sea temp even effect performance. (ask any kitesurfer). So how do we compare performance? I first ignore anything from the manufacturer and anything from someone that owns one (I own a Catana 42S). Best speak to delivery skippers, racing skippers and professional crew. No vested interest in telling tales!. For what it is worth.
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Old 28-04-2008, 17:04   #117
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docgav,

Interesting post! To all you multihull mavens. What is the effect of trim on boatspeed?

On my Hobie 16, it made a tremendous amount of difference, but on a cruising cat, I'm sure much less. Does it have any effect at all?
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Old 28-04-2008, 17:19   #118
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Cruising cats are no different to any other yacht. What makes them go is the efficiency of the pressure gradient over the sails. Everything else slows them down. I am 25 years and five offshore multihulls down the track and am a believer in performance being greatly related to how well we work what we have. Either trimming the sails or sailing to the trim is definately important on cruising boats if you want to go that bit faster. Mind you, unless the crossing is a day or two or you have a boat alongside we pay less attention and care not about the knot or two difference!
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Old 28-04-2008, 17:24   #119
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On my Hobie 16, it made a tremendous amount of difference, but on a cruising cat, I'm sure much less. Does it have any effect at all?
Quite a bit, IMHO. For the same reasons as it does on monos PLUS even more so because of the apparent wind "multiplier". But yes, not as much as on beach cats or strictly racing cats - those boats turn the wind WAY more than on cruising cats. I no longer gybe downwind like I used to racing small cats. A big sym chute DDW produces better VMG on my cruising cat. But I've adopted the same small cat trimming techniques with the exception that I miss the bendy/rotating mast, I'm not sawing the main in and out all day, and I keep both hulls in the water.

Dave
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Old 28-04-2008, 17:36   #120
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Quite a bit, IMHO. For the same reasons as it does on monos PLUS even more so because of the apparent wind "multiplier". But yes, not as much as on beach cats or strictly racing cats - those boats turn the wind WAY more than on cruising cats. I no longer gybe downwind like I used to racing small cats. A big sym chute DDW produces better VMG on my cruising cat. But I've adopted the same small cat trimming techniques with the exception that I miss the bendy/rotating mast, I'm not sawing the main in and out all day, and I keep both hulls in the water.

Dave
Dave:

Are you double reefing the main DDW, or leaving it down, or all the way up?

Keegan
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