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Old 23-04-2008, 15:07   #46
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
That looks about right. VMG of 3.5 upwind and VMG of 7 downwind in 16 true. A bit slower then the Fastcat but also a bit less expensive. Tradewind reaching looks great and really that is how most people cruise their boats. My father in law says, "cats go upwind very well with both engines firewalled", can't argue that logic.

Joli is that allowing for leeway?. If not I suspect it would be approaching the windward mark at closer to 3.
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Old 23-04-2008, 21:34   #47
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According to their polars, 7.3 knots in 10 knots of wind. Perhaps they had a 0.7 knot following current? That kind of speed would be frustrating.
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Old 24-04-2008, 03:11   #48
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My father in law says, "cats go upwind very well with both engines firewalled", can't argue that logic.
And your father in law is qualified in which particular regard - NOTE to MODS I'm not picking a fight, but when people espouse opinions as facts its nice to know if they have any basis for their opinion.
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Old 24-04-2008, 04:26   #49
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Yo Factor - don't allow yourself to get sucked in. An empty wagon makes the most noise.

Dave
Going to weather very happily at 11 kts, 35 degrees apparent, engines quiet
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Old 24-04-2008, 04:38   #50
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Catty, Factor, and Joli.

Mamo has asked for our advice on the performance of Catanas. If you have helpful information or informed opinions, please offer them in a respectful manner. Otherwise, quit diverting the discussion with personal bickering and sarcastic remarks.

This is a public warning. Anyone else who's tempted to divert Mamo's thread, take note.
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Old 24-04-2008, 05:03   #51
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Going to weather very happily at 11 kts, 35 degrees apparent, engines quiet
What is the TWS, sea state and loaded weight when doing this?
What kind of drift are you getting with those nice big daggerboards? Probably not much compared to at least 5 degrees that I get with the LAR keels in flattish water (< 1 ft of chop).

I expect that is with full main and jib, or genoa?

Wouldn't it be great if someone designed a standard set of performance tests for boats, so we could actually compare them, and suppliers would have to deliver against. Something like fuel consumption figures aor crash tests for cars.

I noted the CMA (Cover My A***) clause on the Lagoon polars. If the price you paid was dependent on achieving these numbers, we might see lower figures.

Regards

Alan
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Old 24-04-2008, 06:22   #52
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May I suggest starting with the basics, looking at stuff like the SA/D ratio.



This is my study on Sail Area / Displacement ratio of some cats which I think to buy..I can add more parameters or cats if you wish and please correct me if I have any mistake on this table..
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Old 24-04-2008, 06:46   #53
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Hud, Mamo asked for hard numbers (polars) for a Catana 431. It does not seem anyone has those. The only numbers available are from similar boats (Fastcat, Lagoon, Privlage) and Mamo seemed surprised by those performance numbers. The performance of the average similar sized catamaran seems germane to the discussion, if that is not true please accept my apology.

Possibly I should not have used observations from my father in law who has sailed most of his life in the the Caribbean but instead used the words of Dick Newick: Sail, April 2008, Volume 39, Number 4, Page 69 3rd paragraph. I would consider Dick Newicks comment to be an informed and helpful opinion and worthy of open discussion. Certainly his words are not sarcastic?

"Many modern catamarans have developed into fine charter boats for people willing to trade large windward ability for accommodation areas".

The numbers seem to back Dick Newicks opinion.

So, where does Mamo go for hard numbers? How does he draw a conclusion about performance when the performance of similar boats does not match the pictures in the glossy brochure? Does Mamo shell out $500k for a boat expecting windward ability only to find reality does not match the salesman's puffery? As Mamo said, if the performance of a 10 year old Catana 431 is similar to a Lagoon 44 then he may as well buy the new Lagoon.

Boat performance is easily oversold since it is very hard prove or disprove. All we have to fall back on are polars, race results, and rally times. Here are two rally results for Catana 471's. In this years ARC the two boats averaged 151 miles per day and 170 miles per day respective. I would guess the average daily runs of the 431 would be somewhat less but how would anyone know without polars?

Hud, I am not trying to be sarcastic only accurate but it is tough to not sound sarcastic when reality departs from puffery so substantially. I'll exit the conversation and wish Mamo all the best with whatever boat he decides on.


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Catty, Factor, and Joli.

Mamo has asked for our advice on the performance of Catanas. If you have helpful information or informed opinions, please offer them in a respectful manner. Otherwise, quit diverting the discussion with personal bickering and sarcastic remarks.

This is a public warning. Anyone else who's tempted to divert Mamo's thread, take note.
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Old 24-04-2008, 07:12   #54
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
What is the TWS, sea state and loaded weight when doing this?
What kind of drift are you getting with those nice big daggerboards? Probably not much compared to at least 5 degrees that I get with the LAR keels in flattish water (< 1 ft of chop).

I expect that is with full main and jib, or genoa?
Hi Alan - I've seen 11+ upwind on numerous occasions and it takes TWS 15 - 20 and pretty flat water to do it. Really flat and the apparent angle can be pinched to under 30 degrees with a lot of attention. Lumpy water and best sustained speed is closer to 8 - 9. The boat likes it with the AP set at 35 degrees controlling even when pretty lumpy. All of this is with non-voyaging weight. Full boards until boat speed > 8 kts then half boards (but if the boards are already down there's no getting them up while going to weather). Full main and genny until AWS > ~20 - 25 then one reef in the main. I do not have a drift figure, but certainly there's some.

Dave
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Old 24-04-2008, 09:11   #55
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With apology to Mamo and others, I feel I need to answer Joli's post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Dick Newick's quote: "Many modern catamarans have developed into fine charter boats for people willing to trade large windward ability for accommodation areas".

Joli's quote: "My father in law says, 'cats go upwind very well with both engines firewalled', can't argue that logic."
You're right, Joli, you should have used Dick Newick's quote to make your point. Yours was sarcastic enough to elicit a few responses from other posters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Hud, I am not trying to be sarcastic only accurate but it is tough to not sound sarcastic when reality departs from puffery so substantially. I'll exit the conversation and wish Mamo all the best with whatever boat he decides on.
Joli, it's easy to make a statement of fact and not sound sarcastic, at least for most folks. Look at Dick Newick's statement, for example.

You have a great deal of knowledge and experience to share. Please keep sharing it, but in a way that promotes productive discussion. It appears to me that once someone makes a post with a "certain flavor" in a catamaran thread, the thread tends spin off into pointless arguments and personal invective, driven by a small handful of posters.

Enough of this. Let's get back to answering Mamo's questions.
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Old 24-04-2008, 11:41   #56
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Quote:
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Wait till Gideon gets wind of this! ...no pun intended.

I am curious to see the Catana polars for all of their boats since Catana is on my short list. In fact, I am going to email them and ask for them for a copy. I will let you know if Catana gives me a response.
Catana,s are generally Faster cats than the FP , Privilege or Lagoons but not by much. this is for the Catana,s build the last 10 years , the newer versions have gone a different direction , more weight , more comfort smaller rigs and poorer performance, A customer has just sailed the new 50 in the Golfe the Catana with 30 knots of wind 120 degrees app. main and jib full only 12 knots.

I will attach some of our polars of the FastCat 435 so at least you have something to compare with , our polars are not only theoratical but are proven in practice and we are still improving.
3 polars with weights.
5500
6500
8000
and one polar with 4 different
weights and the same wind speed of 16 knots to see what affect weight has on performance
Greetings
Gideon
p.s. at the La Rochelle boat show 2 years ago we circled around all the other cats sailing out there with exception of the Black Rider
Brest Rider Construction, a catamaran running faster than the wind
a carbon fiber racing performance cat of 40 ft without accomodations and they beat us but just.
The Dean 440 , the Moorings 46 , Nautitech 47 , Lagoon 440, and a few other where out there and there was only 10 knots of wind and we had 8 people on board and still made 8 knots !!!

Greetings
Gideon
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Old 24-04-2008, 11:49   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamo View Post



This is my study on Sail Area / Displacement ratio of some cats which I think to buy..I can add more parameters or cats if you wish and please correct me if I have any mistake on this table..

Just a few corrections for the FastCat 435 that is now the 455

The light weight displacement is 5.5 tons including 250 liters of water and 250 liters of diesel, the sail area for the jib is 39,5 meters and for the main 79 meters squire.

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 24-04-2008, 12:01   #58
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Hello Gideon,

Glad you are here. I'll break my word and ask a couple questions, you are very knowledgable and quite helpful.

Your polars.

Oops, posted to fast.

1) Are the polars tws and twa, tws and awa, or aws and awa?
2) Do you sail to a target awa and target speed or do you sail to a target vmg?
3) Can you post tabulated VMG versus wind speed and load. Up and down?

You are one of the few who make polars readily available. Good job!

Joli


Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Catana,s are generally Faster cats than the FP , Privilege or Lagoons but not by much. this is for the Catana,s build the last 10 years , the newer versions have gone a different direction , more weight , more comfort smaller rigs and poorer performance, A customer has just sailed the new 50 in the Golfe the Catana with 30 knots of wind 120 degrees app. main and jib full only 12 knots.

I will attach some of our polars of the FastCat 435 so at least you have something to compare with , our polars are not only theoratical but are proven in practice and we are still improving.
3 polars with weights.
5500
6500
8000
and one polar with 4 different
weights and the same wind speed of 16 knots to see what affect weight has on performance
Greetings
Gideon
p.s. at the La Rochelle boat show 2 years ago we circled around all the other cats sailing out there with exception of the Black Rider
Brest Rider Construction, a catamaran running faster than the wind
a carbon fiber racing performance cat of 40 ft without accomodations and they beat us but just.
The Dean 440 , the Moorings 46 , Nautitech 47 , Lagoon 440, and a few other where out there and there was only 10 knots of wind and we had 8 people on board and still made 8 knots !!!

Greetings
Gideon
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Old 24-04-2008, 12:05   #59
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Go ahead with the questions Joli ?

Greetings
Gideon
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Old 24-04-2008, 13:22   #60
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Hi Alan - I've seen 11+ upwind on numerous occasions and it takes TWS 15 - 20 and pretty flat water to do it. Really flat and the apparent angle can be pinched to under 30 degrees with a lot of attention. Lumpy water and best sustained speed is closer to 8 - 9. The boat likes it with the AP set at 35 degrees controlling even when pretty lumpy. All of this is with non-voyaging weight. Full boards until boat speed > 8 kts then half boards (but if the boards are already down there's no getting them up while going to weather). Full main and genny until AWS > ~20 - 25 then one reef in the main. I do not have a drift figure, but certainly there's some.

Dave

Thanks for the update Dave.

When I compare your speeds to my FP Tobago, then they are only marginally better. I must say that I expected at least 30-50% higher speeds.
The Tobago will do 10 knots at 37 degrees with a TWS of 19-20 knots with mainsail (38 m2) and non standard self tacking jib (16m2). This is at a weight of just under 5 tons. Tacking angles of 90 degrees only in very flat water. (So 5-8 degrees of drift at 20 knots)
I do not consider the Tobago as being a fast boat, but it is probably above the median for the production cats.

With a 10-12 ft longer waterline, and slimmer hulls (I think), I had higher expectations of the Catanas performance. The better pointing ability is clear to see against fixed keels.

They are very nice boats, but I'm even more impressed with the marketing about how fast they are. It seems they achieve this without directly stating speeds.

Then this is perpetuated by all the brokers and boat testers like in the article posted earlier.

Gideon stated in another thread that he had a friend with a Catana, maybe he can get some polars, or help with some factual feedback??

Regards

Alan
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