PDQ 32 vs Gemini 105MC

[Jerry Woodward]

Rather than hijack another thread, I thought I'd start my own. I am looking at buying a catamaran for caribbean cruising within the next year or so. We are a couple, late 50's, and want a relatively simple, easy sailing cat for liveaboard/cruising. Currently, the Gemini 105MC and PDQ 32 or 36 are at the top of my list. I haven't sailed on either one, so I definitely need to do that. From my reading, it seems like the Gemini 105MC and PDQ 32 are similar weights, and lengths. The PDQ is 2' wider. Similar sail areas.

Perceived advantages of the PDQ:

Outboards vs single diesel with stillette drive leg. I like the concept of the outboards and ease of working on them. The stillette seems to be a big problem on the Geminis. The lack of charging can be compensated for by adding solar, wind, generator. I am concerned about noise though. I am also not sure about the true cost advantage, since diesels last so much longer and require less periodic maintanence.

Much more pounding on the Gemini due to lower bridgedeck clearance
Better visibility on the PDQ:
Better build quality on the PDQ.
The slide back coachroof seems like it would be nice.
The PDQ holds it value better
Kanter ranks the PDQ32 much higher than the Gemini

Perceived advantages of the Gemini:

The Gemini is faster, as far as I can tell. But I'm not sure how significant this is, and whether this difference will still be apparent with the all the stuff you need for cruising.

The Gemini points better due to drop down centerboards.
The Gemini fits into standard slips.
Gemini's are less expensive: A 97 PDQ 32 is listed at $119,000 on YW. At this price, one can get a 5 year newer Gemini, and there are a lot more to choose from.

Pop up rudders wont get damaged if they hit ground.

Am I missing something? Are my assumptions correct? Are there other cats I should be seriously looking at?

[smj]

We've owned a Gemini and seriously considered a PDQ 36 but it looks like we are going back to a Seawind 1000. We sold our Seawind 1000 last January and liked it so much we have a contract on another one. We find a lot to recommend about the Seawind. Well built, good performance, little to no bridgedeck pounding, outboards and a great layout for tropical sailing. On our last Seawind we added 4' stern extensions and it made a huge difference to motion and speed. The cockpit is huge and visibility from the helm great. Definitely another option when considering boats of the Gemini and PDQ size range.

[nautical62]

I have no personal experience with either, but am also interested in catamarans of that range. Having had a trimaran made by the same folks as the Geminis that had bad under deck slamming, to me that's a biggie.

Just a couple added notes - not only different engines, but different positions, the PDQs being in wells.

Also, not long ago there was a PDQ 32 on YW listed in the 90s, so they do come up cheaper than what you've currently found.

I've owned 2 pocket cruisers with outboards and 2 with inboards. There certainly are trade-offs. One thing Kanter mentioned about the PDQ outboard vs inboard option (on the 36) is that one can bring a third ouboard as a spare and still have far less weight at far less expense than 2 inboards. What intrigues me about that option is that if I have an engine problem I can leave one outboard with a mechanic and continue to cruise the area instead of being stuck in a boat yard.

All the best with your choice.

[thinwater]

I assume you read my blog, below, so I'll leave most details out. Mostly, you nailed the differences.

I've sailed both, considered both, and I think you've got it well thought out. I went with the PD most because of build quality. I plan to have it a long time, and structurally, it is VERY well built. Little slamming, never a creak or grown in the worst pounding. Very solid systems installation and very good access for maintenance and repairs... but there have been few.

Speed. I sail around Geminis. Though it varies with the point of the sail and the blow, I think there is no difference and I can catch the slower ones. Up wind there is some edge to the Gemini. Just a tiny bit off close hauled (full-and-by) and in a blow the lighter weight, reduced slamming and greater beam of the PDQ make a difference and the tables are reversed. Even up wind, when slamming is bad (steep chop) the Gemini can lose. For the cruiser, no practical difference.

Sail handling is easy on both boats. No real difference. Somewhat different sail combinations:

• PDQs have a self-tacking jib, which is very nice when single handing, but a trifle slow. Most sail with a large genoa.
• Geminis have a reacher (most don't carry a chute), which is faster on a tight reach but slower going deep. Much easier to handle, but the windage is up there all the time.

For the Gemini:

• Better living space for a couple. They have absolutely maximized the cabin space.
• Terrible helm visibility. Put the reacher up and your sailing blindfolded. They've redesigned it for this year.
• Because there is no slider, the cabin is more enclosed.
• Air conditioning is installed. PDQ can add.
• Less climbing up-and-down than the PDQ (a result of the low bridge deck clearance)
• Easier to tack, because of the boards.
• The winches are awkwardly placed.
• Diesel - better fuel economy.
• Watch the weight (slamming). I've seen loaded Geminis with only 4 inches of clearance.

For the PDQ

• The engines are loud.
• The outboards start becoming annoying at about 10 years, with little problems.
• Dual queen cabins are great with kids. A big selling point for us. Very peaceful!
• Dingy stored more securely.
• Can't stand up when the slider is shut if you are over about 5'2". A winter-only problem.
• The helmsman can talk with every portion of the boat without yelling (hatches to aft cabins, though the slider to the rest).
• Aft cabins have a smooth ride; sleeping is possible in pretty bad sailing conditions, significant better the Geimini.
• All-around (except aft) visibility from the salon is very nice. I can actually have people in the salon keep watch, without having to get them on-deck!
• Easier to put in irons, since the keels are far forward (can dry-out on the keels). Sail balance more important.
• More reliable steering system, and VERY accessible.
• Better crash tank design. All of the through-hulls are in a bulkheaded compartment, so a broken fitting is not a problem. Holding tank is isolated, so stink stays out of the cabin.

Capsize potential is probably equal, since both have managed. That said, it requires very poor seamanship with either boat.

Boats from further north have less wear on them (shorter season, less UV).

I see a LOT more Geminis at the dock and day-sailing, but about the same number of PDQs and Geminis distance-cruising. Not sure why.

[Tropic Cat]

How did you manage to narrow the list to two boats, having never even stepped on any boats at all?

Armchair quarterbacking can only go so far when it comes to boats. If you've owned several boats in the past, you know what I'm saying, if you haven't then find someone that knows boats immediately to advise you and don't make a move without his input.

Selecting and buying a boat are not as simple as the internet makes it seem and ... I don't believe you're asking the correct questions.

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

How did you manage to narrow the list to two boats, having never even stepped on any boats at all?

Armchair quarterbacking can only go so far when it comes to boats. If you've owned several boats in the past, you know what I'm saying, if you haven't then find someone that knows boats immediately to advise you and don't make a move without his input.

Selecting and buying a boat are not as simple as the internet makes it seem and ... I don't believe you're asking the correct questions.

I didn't mean to imply that I have narrowed the list to only two boats. At this point, those two sound the best to me based on extensive reading. But I fully agree, I absolutely need to sail them, and preferably charter before making a decision. I would love to sail a Catalac as well. So far, I've bareboat chartered two monohuls, crewed on i2f's 47' catamaran, and sailed on a St Francis 42. So what questions should I be asking?

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

I didn't mean to imply that I have narrowed the list to only two boats. At this point, those two sound the best to me based on extensive reading. But I fully agree, I absolutely need to sail them, and preferably charter before making a decision. I would love to sail a Catalac as well. So far, I've bareboat chartered two monohuls, crewed on i2f's 47' catamaran, and sailed on a St Francis 42. So what questions should I be asking?

You're looking at older boats, so here's a beginning.

1.) The first criteria is how well the boats age. A function of build quality. Solution, go and look at boats!
2.) Is the boat well maintained.
3.) Solid or cored hulls? Cored hulls ingress water and cause delamination if not well maintained over time.
4.) Are they wet boats or dry boats? A function of older plastic windows Leaking. This turns a boat interior into a mold hazard area.
5.) The Model's reputation among peers.
6.) Inboard diesels or outboard. Outboards cavitate in steep waves, diesels power through.
7.) 1 engine or 2? Twin Diesels have better charging, (important for cruisers or live aboards) Run refrigeration better, (again for cruisers or live aboards) have better manuverability around docks (all cats have monster windage), last longer, can power you 1000 kilometers if you had to head upwind and lastly have a higher resale value.
8.) Is it a blue water boat? (how many ocean crossings)
9.) Bridge deck clearance
10.) Does it have a Lloyds or EC rating?
11.) Does it have boards or keels? (boards perform better and work well on new boats, but have no place in cruising or a live aboard situation on an older boat because of the extra maintenance)

Now, having said all of this, some requires an explanation. Which I will provide if asked.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

You're looking at older boats, so here's a beginning.

1.) The first criteria is how well the boats age. A function of build quality. Solution, go and look at boats!
2.) Is the boat well maintained.
3.) Solid or cored hulls? Cored hulls ingress water and cause delamination if not well maintained over time.
4.) Are they wet boats or dry boats? A function of older plastic windows Leaking. This turns a boat interior into a mold hazard area.
5.) The Model's reputation among peers.
6.) Inboard diesels or outboard. Outboards cavitate in steep waves, diesels power through.
7.) 1 engine or 2? Twin Diesels have better charging, (important for cruisers or live aboards) Run refrigeration better, (again for cruisers or live aboards) have better manuverability around docks (all cats have monster windage), last longer, can power you 1000 kilometers if you had to head upwind and lastly have a higher resale value.
8.) Is it a blue water boat? (how many ocean crossings)
9.) Bridge deck clearance
10.) Does it have a Lloyds or EC rating?
11.) Does it have boards or keels? (boards perform better and work well on new boats, but have no place in cruising or a live aboard situation on an older boat because of the extra maintenance)

Now, having said all of this, some requires an explanation. Which I will provide if asked.

Classic questions, many of which he did ask in some manner. Also some choices that aren't so simple:

3. My last boat was cored and went 30 years with no delamination. It depends on the process. Back to question 1.
6. Not so fast. It depends on the outboards location. Some boats (older Geminis, most monohulls) place the outboard of the transom, and that can be trouble. Others (PDQ, Seawind) place them in central wells and cavitation is very limited. Not as good as inboards, but you could go a lifetime without cavitating them; I've sailed outboard powered cats for 20 years in some snotty weather and never have.
7. Running main engines to charge is silly; that's what panels and wind generators are for. For these sorts of boats, panels are plenty.

And if I ever think I have a reason to power into headwinds for 1000KM on a low-30s boat, I hope some has me committed. I know there are routes like that--just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by thinwater

...

3. My last boat was cored and went 30 years with no delamination. It depends on the process. Back to question 1.

7. Running main engines to charge is silly; that's what panels and wind generators are for. For these sorts of boats, panels are plenty.

And if I ever think I have a reason to power into headwinds for 1000KM on a low-30s boat, I hope some has me committed. I know there are routes like that--just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I don't understand this response. Delamination? Broker docks are full of cats with this issue, sometimes without realizing it. I agree it's model dependent. With some catamarans, this is a given. I won't name names here.

Cruising boats and live aboards don't depend on refrigerators. they have freezer/refrigerators. When can anyone run a freezer and fridge off a solar panel on a 32 foot boat? There just isn't enough square footage available to mount panels as the BTU requirement is monstrous. Even if it were physically possible, the additional windage would make the boat unmanageable in a squall or storm.

On my boat the fridge/freezer is 8 cubic feet, holds 30 days of food and is cooled by a cold plate coupled to an engine drive compressor (Rich Beers system). When cruising it runs twice a day for 30 minutes in the tropics. This 'cost' me 1/8 of a gallon of diesel fuel per day and the diesels are built to handle it. How else do you cross an ocean? All those fish you're going to catch have to go somewhere.

As for 1000 klicks with the wind on the nose. Read 'The Thorny Path'... or how to arrive in the US Virgin Islands, leaving from Florida.

I'm beginning to think we are discussing the difference between cruising catamarans / live aboards vs weekenders or day sailors.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

I don't understand this response. Cruising boats and live aboards don't depend on refrigerators. they have freezer/refrigerators. When can anyone run a freezer and fridge off a solar panel on a 32 foot boat?

On my boat the fridge/freezer is 8 cubic feet, holds 30 days of food and is cooled by a cold plate coupled to an engine drive compressor. When cruising it runs twice a day for 30 minutes in the tropics. This 'cost' me 1/8 of a gallon of diesel fuel per day and the diesels are built to handle it. How else do you cross an ocean?

As for 1000 klicks with the wind on the nose. Read 'The Thorny Path'... or how to arrive in the US Virgin Islands, leaving from Florida.

I'm beginning to think we are discussing the difference between cruising catamarans vs weekenders or day sailors.

Let's not start a fight. Sorry if I make bold statements. However...

a. It is a choice to have a fridge at all and a small one will do well. Having 30 days worth of capacity would strike many as silly. That is what cans and non-perishables are for. You've got to know that 8ft3 on a small boat is a bit out there and not near the norm. You've made a power-hungry choice that suits you. I've done enough camping and climbing, I think, that refrigeration beyond a token for cold drinks seems frivolous. I honestly wouldn't know what to put in it for 30 days.

b. Yes, I know full-time folks in small boats running a fridge on solar. They have lots of panels.

c. No, I am not discussing day sailing. I'm am describing folks that have sailed as far as you say. But the OP did not say they were crossing on ocean, only parts of the Caribe; that discussion takes us off-thread.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Let's not start a fight. Sorry if I make bold statements. However...

a. It is a choice to have a fridge at all and a small one will do well. Having 30 days worth of capacity would strike many as silly. That is what cans and non-perishables are for. You've got to know that 8ft3 on a small boat is a bit out there and not near the norm. You've made a power-hungry choice that suits you. I've done enough camping and climbing, I think, that refrigeration beyond a token for cold drinks seems frivolous. I honestly wouldn't know what to put in it for 30 days.

Optional equipment offered on all Catalacs. If I remember correctly, it increased the new boat price by $3000 1985 USD. Actually, it's invisible on my boat as it resides in my galley counter top. The Unit is 4 feet by 1.5 ft by 1.5 feet.

Originally Posted by thinwater

b. Yes, I know full-time folks in small boats running a fridge on solar. They have lots of panels.

Fridge of course, no freezer

Originally Posted by thinwater

c. No, I am not discussing day sailing. I'm am describing folks that have sailed as far as you say. But the OP did not say they were crossing on ocean, only parts of the Caribe; that discussion takes us off-thread.

It was my understanding they would live aboard. I offered my thoughts because he asked me, and I'm aboard many model cats on a regular basis. If I didn't see the difference in boat's I never would have posted in this thread.

[smj]

The Seawind 1000 has a fridge and freezer. This and everything else on the boat runs on two 120 watt solar panels. I would never consider engine driven refrigeration. Talk about being married to your boat. What happens if you want to leave the boat for a few days to a week on the hook to do some land traveling? Can't be done unless you want to lose your 30 days worth of food. Never had that problem on our Seawind. Diesels vs. Outboards, sailing vs. motor sailing. No drag, no metal in the water and always a clean prop are some of the many advantages of the outboard.

[Mr B]

All the information you gave, you can get on the internet,

Then you ask the people who have actually owned them and are sailing on them,

This information is available freely on the net by people who live on their boats and are discussing problems with their boats,
You do enough intensive reading, you know what is wrong and right with various boats and whether that particular boat will suit you,

The boat has to suit the owner, Not some one else that likes a particular boat or not.

There are thousands of different boats out there, After carefully looking and reading you have to narrow it down to a couple of boats that suit your intended purpose and what you like, Appeals to you, and not any one else,

No one can say that that particular boat is what you need, As the parson buying it doesnt even like it, And its his money that he is putting up, Not yours,

Its good that the OP has narrowed it down to two boats, Then he can concentrate on whether either of those boats are actually suitable for his needs,
And appeal to him,

I bought my boat totally unseen, By looking at Pictures of it and other boats of the same design, I have watched plenty of video's of this particular boat doing Large cross ocean voyages in totally crap weather,
None of them had damage from their encounters with very bad weather.

I still get people saying they are a coastal cruiser and should not go further than your bath tub.

I ask them if they have actually owned,sailed or even been on one, Majority of cases, the answer is a firm, NO,
Well how do you know if this boat is seaworthy,
I read it some where, Its just my opinion, some one told me, Etc Etc Etc,

But it comes down to, they havent got a clue, and are trying to give advice on some thing they know absolutely nothing about.

As for me, The difference between a Gemini and a PDQ is huge, I dont even like the look of the PDQ, A lot of the things on a PDQ wont suit me, There are things in a PDQ I dont want, which the Gemini has,

I have never even put foot on either of these boats, But I still bought a Gemini, and I will live aboard her for a lot of years to come,

A Haul out and a full Licenced survey by a Licenced surveyor will tell you whether to purchase the vessel you have chosen or not,

It is better to actually go and see the vessel and spend some time in looking it over,. But in my case that was not possible,
Hence the way I went about buying it,

Cheers,
Brian.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Mr B

I have never even put foot on either of these boats, But I still bought a Gemini, and I will live aboard her for a lot of years to come,
Cheers,
Brian.

You must be the guy who bought Kevin's boat? I just heard from him last week. Nice guy...good sailor and a very good boat , which he sailed a long way from home.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

You must be the fella who just bought Kevin's boat? I just heard from him last week. Nice guy...good boat which he sailed a very long way from home.

Yep. Thats me,

It hasn't actually done all that many sea miles, so it should still be in very good condition, Mechanically and structurally
The surveyor stated that is is fully seaworthy,
And the surveyor does know I intend sailing it from Fiji to Melbourne, Australia,

It gets freezing down here, So the enclosed cockpit was a must, -4C bad weather is a lot of the time, The entrance to Yaringa, Western Port Bay,Victoria, is Bass Straight and the Tasman sea, Southern Ocean is just over there a bit,

Think Northern Atlantic, Same weather as here,

The Gemini is just what I need and I like it as well, I was also looking at the Seawind, but it has an open cockpit, (no Saloon doors) and just not suitable for me, The 1260 was just out of my price range, It has doors to the saloon,

Cheers,
Brian,