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Old 27-11-2012, 14:06   #121
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Re: Passage Speed

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I think speed in the racing context has a clear meaning. But in the cruising one ????

Why buy a cruising boat and hurry? Is this not contradictory?

BTW You want speed you buy the bigger (or lighter boat). But only with the bigger one you can get both speed and comfort. (For the less speculative, cruising type: go get a big one.)

b.
Cruising is about going places. That requires movement. It's not contradictory, but it's also not an overriding factor. It's probably a tertiary factor, at most. But it is a factor, for sure. You can't spend 100 days at sea!
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Old 27-11-2012, 14:12   #122
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Re: Passage Speed

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Cruising is about going places. That requires movement. It's not contradictory, but it's also not an overriding factor. It's probably a tertiary factor, at most. But it is a factor, for sure. You can't spend 100 days at sea!
+1!

And one can spend 100 days at sea!

We spent 72. I am looking forward to a passage long enough to take 100! (Then again, I am not a cruiser per se, I am a sailor, one that cruises too).

b.
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Old 27-11-2012, 14:13   #123
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Re: Passage Speed

OK, so the OP ranks tris fastest, and I have one.

Can anyone top a -17 nm (that's 17 miles further away from the destination than the preceding noon position) day's run? Something tells me most would opt for the diesel breeze.

We generally find we arrive a little faster and a lot more rested than comparable length boats, but it comes down to conditions and crew as much as it does to boat. The last time we left Z-Town for the Marquesas the boats that left 24 hours behind us ended up taking a week or more longer than the boats that left the same day we did. They sailed into a big hole that we all managed to escape.

With a crew of three or four it's pretty easy to have someone actually paying attention to the sailing all the time, once you get down to a couple twelve hours on watch usually means you're a little less efficient at the sailing part (IME), and singlehanding...
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Old 27-11-2012, 14:21   #124
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Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I think speed in the racing context has a clear meaning. But in the cruising one ????

Why buy a cruising boat and hurry? Is this not contradictory?

BTW You want speed you buy the bigger (or lighter boat). But only with the bigger one you can get both speed and comfort. (For the less speculative, cruising type: go get a big one.)

b.
Less exposure to changes in the weather. The ability to reach reef or barred entrances in daylight.... the fact that it just FEELS better to be making progress.
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Old 27-11-2012, 15:26   #125
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Re: Passage Speed

Originally Posted by barnakiel
I think speed in the racing context has a clear meaning. But in the cruising one ????

Why buy a cruising boat and hurry? Is this not contradictory?

b.

We keep hearing this argument, but I'm not at all convinced of its validity.

Show me a cruiser whose eyes don't sparkle when the wind picks up a bit and the bow wave starts to chuckle and the wake to stream a bit further... to me, that person may be a cruiser, but he/she is not a sailor!

Besides cruisingcat's practical advantages, the sheer pleasure of sailing a quick and responsive boat are a big part of the enjoyment of our chosen lifestyle.

As always, YMMV and I won't say that you are wrong... just different!

Cheers,

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Old 27-11-2012, 15:41   #126
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Re: Passage Speed

+10

I love long passages, I love them even more when they're made with a "bone in her teeth".
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Old 27-11-2012, 16:17   #127
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Re: Passage Speed

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Less exposure to changes in the weather. The ability to reach reef or barred entrances in daylight.... the fact that it just FEELS better to be making progress.
Half jokingly, half seriously:

a) Less exposure to changes in the weather.
> stay at home for EVEN LESS EXPOSURE,

What is wrong with exposure to changes in the weather? The weather changes all the time. Is life not all about exposure to changes? Is sailing not about being in the weather rather than trying to dodge it?

b) The ability to reach reef or barred entrances in daylight....
> stay out and enter next morning twice that good,

The daylight will be there tomorrow, and the reef will be there too. The only difference between entering the lagoon today and tomorrow is inside the head of the hurrying sailor.

c) it just FEELS better to be making progress.
> When you go slower, you are still making progress, think quality vs. quality.

I think one thing is to go slow or slower and another is going too slow. Going too slow can be a danger as much as going too fast (much as both notions may be wildly interpreted by each and every sailor).

b.
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Old 27-11-2012, 16:27   #128
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Re: Passage Speed

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I think one thing is to go slow or slower and another is going too slow. Going too slow can be a danger as much as going too fast (much as both notions may be wildly interpreted by each and every sailor).

b.
Seriously though, there is safety in being able to make good speed - a very well made point. There is also danger in going too fast.

It's true that a cruiser will often put speed low on the priority list, but it IS still important. If you have a choice between a fast water-condo and a slow water-condo, and all other factors are equal, anyone would chose the FAST water condo!

More speed equals fewer limitations, as long as it doesn't come with unwanted compromises. That's what this is all about. Getting more without getting less!
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Old 27-11-2012, 16:32   #129
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Re: Passage Speed

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

Show me a cruiser whose eyes don't sparkle when the wind picks up a bit and the bow wave starts to chuckle and the wake to stream a bit further... to me, that person may be a cruiser, but he/she is not a sailor!
Yes.

I do think that a number of cruisers do not really qualify as sailors. I mean: there are so many people in the field and believe me or not many of them only drive the vessel as if she were a car. And if speed becomes an issue then they simply start the donkey.

I am a great admirer of fast boats and I always say that it is easy to make a fast boats slow down but it is very difficult to make a slow one sail faster. This much said, I am trying to be realistic and I know that I belong in the minority club and that this club is none better than any other one!

So if you ask me if I see any benefits of boat speed I will respond yes but if you ask me if there are many cruisers who know how to make their boat sail to her full speed potential then I will say no.

But this is just an opinion, not anything that I will try to ask others to believe in, adhere to, or apply.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 27-11-2012, 16:40   #130
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Re: Passage Speed

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
So if you ask me if I see any benefits of boat speed I will respond yes but if you ask me if there are many cruisers who know how to make their boat sail to her full speed potential then I will say no.
Put it a different way - if you were looking at two racing yachts, and both were equal in every way except for comfort and amenities would you say "Bah! It's a racing boat - why would I have any concern for comfort and amenities?"

No, you would say "Comfort is not my top priority, but I will take the one that is the most pleasant and comfortable to sail in".

And if you don't, then you are just a masochist, and you should definitely buy the slowest, most uncomfortable boat you can find!
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Old 27-11-2012, 16:44   #131
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Re: Passage Speed

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(...) If you have a choice between a fast water-condo and a slow water-condo, and all other factors are equal, anyone would chose the FAST water condo!(...)
No, not everyone. But indeed great many would.

Most of those that would, may in fact have very little skill to drive the condo fast when it comes to sailing her.

So I would say branding a boat as 'fast' will sell and especially so when the potential buyer knows little, or nothing, of the reality of passage making.

Why bother with making the boat you have sail better (and faster) if you can buy the faster boat. Learning gets killed by buying the apparently faster tool and then using it below its potential. Pretty common attitude today ...

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Old 27-11-2012, 16:48   #132
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Re: Passage Speed

The ARC boats aren't really representative of the cruising fleet. When you say passage speed there are so many variables that it is impossible to come up with a single answer. I had an interesting experience cruising in company with two other very different boats. Ours is a 38-foot motorsailor, one was a 42-foot French cat, and the other a 53-foot monohull. We didn't do any long passages, but several 200-400 milers together down in the southwest Caribbean. In general, we were the slowest, but sometimes we arrived first due to the wind petering out and being able to motorsail effectively. Hard on the wind in rough seas the 53-footer was the fastest, we were second, and the cat was third. Downwind the cat was the best. However, after two or three days on passage we never arrived more than a few hours apart. Of course, things would change on a tradewinds passage across the Pacific, and I have no doubt the cat would win out, followed by the 53-footer, and then us, but I suspect the difference in passage times would only be a few days.
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Old 27-11-2012, 16:59   #133
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Re: Passage Speed

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Put it a different way - if you were looking at two racing yachts, and both were equal in every way except for comfort and amenities would you say "Bah! It's a racing boat - why would I have any concern for comfort and amenities?"

No, you would say "Comfort is not my top priority, but I will take the one that is the most pleasant and comfortable to sail in".

And if you don't, then you are just a masochist, and you should definitely buy the slowest, most uncomfortable boat you can find!
?

From my racing experience and the little of cruising experience that I do have, I will notice that (all other things equal) the one with fewer amenities tends to race faster. Less garbage, lighter boat, faster.

This would be racing.

Now cruising-wise, if we look at two boats that sail equally fast and one has better amenities than the other, then I would choose ... the safer one.

My take is that speed is the god when racing. Safety, comfort, then speed for cruising.

Do notice I do not say get the slowest, most uncomfortable boat you can find.

b.
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Old 27-11-2012, 17:09   #134
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Re: Passage Speed

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The ARC boats aren't really representative of the cruising fleet.(...)
This may be. But we do get a database with well over 200 various boats with their passage times, engine hours runs and the way they were sailed (some cruising boats participate in the racing division and vice versa).

And to make some sort of educated guesses we are much better off using this body of data and seeing what it tells us.

I DID run ARC data (and Trans-pac) data thru Excel spreadsheets and I DID compare their passage times versus their LWLs, etc.. Good exercise for anybody claiming oceans crossing are done at hull speed.

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Old 28-11-2012, 05:51   #135
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Re: Passage Speed

Over the years, I have heard a lot about "outrunning bad weather" but I see little evidence that anyone does it on a regular basis (or on more than a short coastal hop). Bottom line: you check your weather window, leave on a good note and take what you get (hopefully within seasonal and geographic parameters) once you're out there. That's what cruising is.

To the extent that skippers in faster boats have expectations of outrunning bad weather -- especially in a coastal cruising context -- I'd say that's the kind of skipper who invites trouble for himself/herself and crew.
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