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Old 13-11-2012, 11:12   #31
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Re: Passage Speed

I think the formula is 1.1 times the square root of the water line length.
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Old 13-11-2012, 12:14   #32
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Re: Passage Speed

Stop the theories, look at some results: from a 140 nautical race with Dragonflies and many monohulls, Wind 10 to 20 knots: All boats are in racing trim
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Old 13-11-2012, 12:20   #33
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Re: Passage Speed

That spreadsheet does appear to portray a pretty compelling arguement!!!
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Old 13-11-2012, 12:31   #34
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Re: Passage Speed

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Originally Posted by django37 View Post
Stop the theories, look at some results: from a 140 nautical race with Dragonflies and many monohulls, Wind 10 to 20 knots: All boats are in racing trim
It's a pretty short race and it's a race. Probably fully and aggressively crewed and actively helmed (no autopilot). Of course, if you're on a slalom for 11 hours, the crew is going to put out 100 percent to win.

This is Cruisers Forum. Compare that to a real-life passage of 1,000 or more miles (10x your example): Crew = mom and pop. Self-steering or windvane for most of the trip.

Changes in weather, changes in wind (point of sail), crew fatigue.

A very different thing indeed.
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Old 13-11-2012, 12:37   #35
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Re: Passage Speed

Real world example. We buddy boated with a Manta 42 cat for a few day-long sails in the Bahamas last winter. On these days, we were as fast or faster. our boat is a 35' mono, racer/cruiser, with a deep (6ft+) keel.

But...

They were admittedly over-weight.
One day in light air, we boat sailed light air headsails, ours an assymetrical spinnaker, and theirs a similar sail, but smaller % then ours. We caught them after they left, and held perhaps a .25 knot over them on average
They had an ice-maker on-board.

One passage, between Current cut and the Abacos (open ocean), They turned back, because the point of sail was very uncomfortable for them, lots of rolling. if he changed the point of sail to make it comfortable, they would have not made it across before nightfall. We had a great, spirited sail in 6-8ft seas, and made it in plenty of time to anchor before nightfall.


Also, nobody cruises a planning hull boat, and gets it up on a plane except when surfing down wind. You wold not want the wind to pick up during the night, and bam, you are up on a plane. The skills and concentration needed to do so would far exceed what the typical couple could handle. small, planing hull would be a ton of work, and tiring motion, offshore. Think wet, sore and exhausted. This would be akin to going cross-country on a fast sport motorcycle. Ever see those guys riding them on the highway? They are always trying to sit up and rest, but can only hold on with one hand that way. Not fun.

Chris
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Old 13-11-2012, 12:42   #36
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Re: Passage Speed

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Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
Real world example. We buddy boated with a Manta 42 cat for a few day-long sails in the Bahamas last winter. On these days, we were as fast or faster. our boat is a 35' mono, racer/cruiser, with a deep (6ft+) keel.

But...

They were admittedly over-weight.
One day in light air, we boat sailed light air headsails, ours an assymetrical spinnaker, and theirs a similar sail, but smaller % then ours. We caught them after they left, and held perhaps a .25 knot over them on average
They had an ice-maker on-board.

One passage, between Current cut and the Abacos (open ocean), They turned back, because the point of sail was very uncomfortable for them, lots of rolling. if he changed the point of sail to make it comfortable, they would have not made it across before nightfall. We had a great, spirited sail in 6-8ft seas, and made it in plenty of time to anchor before nightfall.


Also, nobody cruises a planning hull boat, and gets it up on a plane except when surfing down wind. You wold not want the wind to pick up during the night, and bam, you are up on a plane. The skills and concentration needed to do so would far exceed what the typical couple could handle. small, planing hull would be a ton of work, and tiring motion, offshore. Think wet, sore and exhausted. This would be akin to going cross-country on a fast sport motorcycle. Ever see those guys riding them on the highway? They are always trying to sit up and rest, but can only hold on with one hand that way. Not fun.

Chris
Good points, Chris. I forgot to mention a cruising load and that Dragonflies are not exactly cruising multis. I'm not suggesting that cruising multis aren't, overall, faster than cruising monos; I'm only saying that when you factor in all the vagaries of a real-life cruise, the advantages of the multis start to diminish rather precipitously.
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Old 13-11-2012, 13:03   #37
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Re: Passage Speed

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Am I missing something or did you just show me 11 knots apparent in a quartering wind?
10 1/2 - 11 knots of true wind, at 120 degrees true, 9 knots of boatspeed. We CAN do 8 knots in 10.
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Old 13-11-2012, 13:29   #38
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Re: Passage Speed

A lot of guys like me have enough OD experience to know some guys always sail faster than others. I would bet in his prime Dennis Conner would beat any poster in this thread in any length race/cruise on what everyone would agree is the slowest boat.

The real question you need to ask is "at my skill level which boat will sail the most miles in a day where I will be cruising when the boat is in a cruising mode I can live with and be purchased within my budget". The DF is a fast boat from what I know. I have sailed Fboats and they seem to beat almost everything in sight. On the other hand I have been on a Seawind 1000xls and it is a comfortable boat that is easy to sail and can carry a reasonable load. Monohulls are almost for sure the best bang for the buck and some are fairly fast, especially once you get above say 40 ft or so.

For what I would call trade wind sailing a cat would seem to have an advantage of a wide beam for setting head sails and might not suffer from the wallowing some monohulls suffer from. While a tri would have the same wide beam they often have load limits more constraining than cats. On the other hand beating on a windward passage a mono would probably be the boat of choice.

All boats are compromises and what you have to do is determine just what you are looking for in a boat.
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Old 14-11-2012, 13:32   #39
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Re: Passage Speed

In a force 1 all boats crawl. in a F4 a light boat flies along especialy a multyhull. in a F7 most move quickly and in F9+ only the best make well to windward. F12+ well a mono will self right But a multy should have gotten you out of there before it came.
For a few dollars a small mono gets you there. for $50K you can get a good mono or old multy(if you look), for $100K you get a reasonable boat then for more money you get faster and newer.
and for $many million you might as well use a 747 and stay in a hotel as nothing beats a 747 to windward.
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Old 14-11-2012, 15:10   #40
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Re: Passage Speed

For some useful information about realistic average passage speed look at the recently completed Carib 1500 regatta results, including mono and cat, various sizes and underbodies.
World Cruising Club Carib1500 Fleet Viewer
Click on the left side to show the VMG of all the boats.
Over 7-10 days, more than six knots is very fast, 5.5 is average, 5 is on the slower side.
Unless a day or two is important to you, or you are trying to beat a weather system, this is largely a moot point for most cruisers.
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Old 14-11-2012, 17:37   #41
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Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by django37 View Post
Stop the theories, look at some results: from a 140 nautical race with Dragonflies and many monohulls, Wind 10 to 20 knots: All boats are in racing trim
Quote:
Originally Posted by vjmehra View Post
That spreadsheet does appear to portray a pretty compelling arguement!!!
I believe the OP's question was in relation to boats in cruising trim, with the implication that the boat was being sailed by a couple, ie. short handed.
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Old 14-11-2012, 17:51   #42
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Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calypso52 View Post
For some useful information about realistic average passage speed look at the recently completed Carib 1500 regatta results, including mono and cat, various sizes and underbodies.
World Cruising Club Carib1500 Fleet Viewer
Click on the left side to show the VMG of all the boats.
Over 7-10 days, more than six knots is very fast, 5.5 is average, 5 is on the slower side.
Unless a day or two is important to you, or you are trying to beat a weather system, this is largely a moot point for most cruisers.
Among the boats already finished, both boats over 6kt were monohulls (Moody54 and Oyster 46), 2 of the 6 boats under 5kt were multis, a Lagoon42 and an Outremer.
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Old 14-11-2012, 17:58   #43
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Re: Passage Speed

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Originally Posted by limejucer View Post
In a force 1 all boats crawl. in a F4 a light boat flies along especialy a multyhull. in a F7 most move quickly and in F9+ only the best make well to windward. F12+ well a mono will self right But a multy should have gotten you out of there before it came.
For a few dollars a small mono gets you there. for $50K you can get a good mono or old multy(if you look), for $100K you get a reasonable boat then for more money you get faster and newer.
and for $many million you might as well use a 747 and stay in a hotel as nothing beats a 747 to windward.
I disagree in cruising trim multi's are not going to be doing significantly better than a monohull which means they really don't have the boat speed to outrun storms. Unless we are talking about 60' boats, of course.
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Old 14-11-2012, 18:04   #44
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Re: Passage Speed

Yep, the most likely scenario for me is 2 handed (maybe 3). I'd like to do some racing, but anything with the lady would definitely be cruising trim.
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Old 14-11-2012, 18:34   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie

Among the boats already finished, both boats over 6kt were monohulls (Moody54 and Oyster 46), 2 of the 6 boats under 5kt were multis, a Lagoon42 and an Outremer.
Ouch! The Outremer must have been running with his engines in reverse just to make the other boats feel good about themselves!
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