Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-11-2012, 14:52   #151
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,450
Images: 69
Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
I'd rather fly a kite.
Not sure how that would work on a close reach though.
__________________

__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 14:53   #152
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: Passage Speed

It doesn't. Downwind replacement for a spinnaker. Just combine the kite with all these solar panels.....
__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 15:48   #153
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
From the link you posted:

"Just about everybody in our group did really well — even the little 'three M's' — because everybody moved along pretty much as fast as they could. The most wind we had was 25 to 30 knots for a short time, which wasn't bad, because we need a lot of wind to move. Best of all, we were able to sail straight for our destination. When the wind did calm down, we immediately fired up the engine and motored as quickly as we could. As a result of averaging 140 miles a day, we and most of the boats in our group were able to sneak down to New Zealand between the low which clobbered the Fiji fleet, and the much stronger second low which caught Salacia and Freya, two boats at the tail end of our group."
You need to read the whole thing: Salacia is also reported to have been becalmed for four days between the two lows, during which time Fritz either couldn't or didn't want to motor. We've also been told that Freya, which was behind Salacia, had arranged to give her a tow — until the wind came up first.

[In any case, my point is that what's talked about in these post-mortems is only the boats that called a mayday. Most seem to have got through just fine - a few didn't.]
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 16:12   #154
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Re: Passage Speed

By the numbers: "'It's unclear exactly how many boats were caught in the core of the June '94 storm"

"... but nine boats with a total of 24 crew issued maydays. ... two of the nine boats that issued maydays were catamarans.
In addition, there was a third catamaran, a 39-footer, on the periphery of the core."

So, the author says there's no way of knowing how many boats there were, but mentions a third catamaran that didn't call mayday. The way this is written, it sounds to me like the author doesn't know the total number of boats, but does know that it was a total of three catamarans. In addition, there were almost certainly many more monos than just those that made a distress call. The author certainly suggests as much.

Instead of drawing conclusions about monos here, you might be justified instead (although I certainly wouldn't from the limited information and the small number of data points) in drawing conclusions about the catamarans. If we take what we see here at face value, it does not look any better for them than it does for the monos. It appears that 2/3 of them called maydays. That's surely a much higher "distress rate" than for the monos.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 16:27   #155
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,949
Re: Passage Speed

Something I know a bit about is the Queen's Birthday Storm as I was the editor of Tony Farrington's book, Rescue in the Pacific--well worth reading I might add. The storm was not a cyclone or a typhoon. It was labeled a "bomb" storm by Bob McDavitt of the New Zealand Met Service. The storm was actually relatively small, with very tight isobars on the south side, so people and boats separated by not that many miles may have experienced very different conditions. That is why it is hard to compare what happened to the nine boats that issued May Day calls and others that may have been in the vicinity. It is like saying that because I was out on my boat at the same time, though in North Carolina, I went through The Perfect Storm.
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 18:06   #156
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Something I know a bit about is the Queen's Birthday Storm as I was the editor of Tony Farrington's book, Rescue in the Pacific--well worth reading I might add. The storm was not a cyclone or a typhoon. It was labeled a "bomb" storm by Bob McDavitt of the New Zealand Met Service. The storm was actually relatively small, with very tight isobars on the south side, so people and boats separated by not that many miles may have experienced very different conditions. That is why it is hard to compare what happened to the nine boats that issued May Day calls and others that may have been in the vicinity. It is like saying that because I was out on my boat at the same time, though in North Carolina, I went through The Perfect Storm.
Good point. Like I said, from what I have read, I wouldn't attempt to draw any conclusions from that storm, but I don't think anyone else is in a position to either. And as I have said repeatedly over the years - I have probably done as many sea miles on catamarans (in Asia on deliveries) as monos. I'm not anti-cat.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 19:11   #157
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,450
Images: 69
Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
By the numbers: "'It's unclear exactly how many boats were caught in the core of the June '94 storm"

"... but nine boats with a total of 24 crew issued maydays. ... two of the nine boats that issued maydays were catamarans. In addition, there was a third catamaran, a 39-footer, on the periphery of the core."

So, the author says there's no way of knowing how many boats there were, but mentions a third catamaran that didn't call mayday. The way this is written, it sounds to me like the author doesn't know the total number of boats, but does know that it was a total of three catamarans. In addition, there were almost certainly many more monos than just those that made a distress call. The author certainly suggests as much.

Instead of drawing conclusions about monos here, you might be justified instead (although I certainly wouldn't from the limited information and the small number of data points) in drawing conclusions about the catamarans. If we take what we see here at face value, it does not look any better for them than it does for the monos. It appears that 2/3 of them called maydays. That's surely a much higher "distress rate" than for the monos.
I happen to know there was at least one other cat (over and above the 3 in the core area) at sea in that area at the time.

So at worst it's 50% of cats that called mayday, and no deaths, no capsizes and no sinkings. Worse than the mono's?

You admit to not knowing how many mono's were there, but ASSUME it was a lot more. And fact is you don't know how many cats were there either, but still say we "might be justified in drawing conclusions about (them)".

Anyway, despite your efforts, this should not be yet another cat vs mono thread. It's about speed on passage. You're trying to deny that being able to cross oceans quickly is a safety feature, even though your own evidence contradicts that.

To me, it's simple - the less time you spend on passage, the lower the odds you'll encounter severe weather. And that means you're safer.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2012, 05:25   #158
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I happen to know there was at least one other cat (over and above the 3 in the core area) at sea in that area at the time.

So at worst it's 50% of cats that called mayday, and no deaths, no capsizes and no sinkings. Worse than the mono's?

You admit to not knowing how many mono's were there, but ASSUME it was a lot more. And fact is you don't know how many cats were there either, but still say we "might be justified in drawing conclusions about (them)".

Anyway, despite your efforts, this should not be yet another cat vs mono thread. It's about speed on passage. You're trying to deny that being able to cross oceans quickly is a safety feature, even though your own evidence contradicts that.

To me, it's simple - the less time you spend on passage, the lower the odds you'll encounter severe weather. And that means you're safer.
You missed the point completely. I'm not trying to draw any conclusions - there simply is not enough information. I said that repeatedly. I wasn't the one who brought it up, nor was I the one who made sweeping (and inaccurate) generalizations as to what it might mean.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2012, 08:36   #159
Registered User
 
Captain Jeffry's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Southern California
Boat: 41' Sail
Posts: 420
Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
To me, it's simple - the less time you spend on passage, the lower the odds you'll encounter severe weather. And that means you're safer.
Could not agree more.
__________________
Captain Jeffry Matzdorff
100 Ton Master
Captain Jeffry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 21:22   #160
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,310
Re: Passage Speed

For those who want real data on passage speeds, the current ARC boat tracker shows 17 catamarans in a fleet of 220 boats spread out across the Atlantic.

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

The tracker has different icons for cats and monos, so it is easy to see their relative performance at a glance. The lead cat is a Catana 431, which is 40th overall, while the tail-ender is a Lagoon 440 at 191st overall. In 9 2/3 days, the Catana has come about 1400 miles for a 6 knot average, while the Lagoon has made 1000 miles for a 4.3 knot average. There is a 40 ft mono with a 9 knot average, but its a race boat and they went the right direction.

There are well sailed boats and not-so well-sailed boats, but by and large the cats are keeping pace with similar sized monos. IMHO these results bust the oft repeated myth that cats are faster.

Look at the link in the next few days, as I've never been able to get archived data from the tracker...
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 22:56   #161
Registered User
 
Barra's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 808
Re: Passage Speed

Re the ARC i too have been watching the fleet tracker with interest as potentially looking at doing this myself next year.

If you take out the racing boats and invitational cruisers the catana is actually leading all cruising boats including some 80 footers so not sure it actually dispells the myth about cats being faster at all...

What it does show is that VMG in the order of 6 knots on a long pasage like this is actually pretty realistic and not the 8 plus knots that sometimes gets extrapolated from shorter journeys.

One thing to watch on that ARC tracker too is that most of the cruising boats elected to delay their start by 2 days due to adverse winds whereas the racers all left as scheduled so in effect have a 2 day head start. Would have been a wild ride on that 40 footer leading the fleet thats for sure....
__________________
Barra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 23:37   #162
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,310
Re: Passage Speed

Thanks for setting me straight on the delayed start. In that case, the Catana 431 has averaged a respectable 7.6 knots, and the Lagoon 440 is up to 5.5 knots.

I don't have the time to go through a lot of boats, but I still don't see the cats running away from the monos. For example, I looked around the #2 cat which is a Lagoon 560, and it is running alongside a Beneteau 50 and a Swan 48 in the cruising division.
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 00:24   #163
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Thanks for setting me straight on the delayed start. In that case, the Catana 431 has averaged a respectable 7.6 knots, and the Lagoon 440 is up to 5.5 knots.

I don't have the time to go through a lot of boats, but I still don't see the cats running away from the monos. For example, I looked around the #2 cat which is a Lagoon 560, and it is running alongside a Beneteau 50 and a Swan 48 in the cruising division.
The Lagoon 440 Chilicat had problems and went back for repairs, it's in a totally different weather pattern.

A Forum member Roelf Oetter is doing very well on his '450 Next Life', his boat gives a good guide when comparing it to the Catana.

No Lagoon will streak away from such a mixed fleet due mainly to the comfort they are enjoying...

Go "Next Life".....
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 16:27   #164
Registered User
 
Barra's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 808
Talking Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Thanks for setting me straight on the delayed start. In that case, the Catana 431 has averaged a respectable 7.6 knots, and the Lagoon 440 is up to 5.5 knots.

I don't have the time to go through a lot of boats, but I still don't see the cats running away from the monos. For example, I looked around the #2 cat which is a Lagoon 560, and it is running alongside a Beneteau 50 and a Swan 48 in the cruising division.
No worries. I actually agree with you in that a cat loaded up for cruising isnt typically that much faster than slightly bigger monos in all round conditions. Lightly loaded though thats a different story....

Looking at the weather ahead of the fleet the "winning" cruising boats are going to be the ones that decide to motor through the sub 5 knots winds. Hopefully then we will have another "cat fight" between the motoring lagoons and the catana ala 2011
__________________
Barra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 21:42   #165
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: WTB Lagoon or Leopard 38'-40'
Posts: 1,273
Re: Passage Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I still don't see the cats running away from the monos. For example, I looked around the #2 cat which is a Lagoon 560, and it is running alongside a Beneteau 50 and a Swan 48 in the cruising division.
You shouldn't expect to see that - what I would expect to see is a lagoon running away from a Mono which has similar windage to a Lagoon.

The reality is that the desirable features of a Lagoon are her ABOVE water features - which leads to windage.

Conversely, it is the mono's BELOW water features that make her undesirable to the cat-crowd - and which avoids the windage, but (hypothetically) increases water resistance

Compare a catamaran with similar top-deck vs. low-deck features to those of a mono, and I would expect to see that the cat is equal or better on nearly all points of sail, especially if it has daggerboards, primarily because of the lack of additional ballast and the need for a very deep keel.
__________________

__________________
ArtM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
passage

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.