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Old 25-02-2016, 10:29   #16
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Re: Painting with awl grip

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Originally Posted by GreatLakesCapt View Post
All the info you've received is good stuff - especially the wet sand drill! But I didn't see any mention of caution when painting with 2-part. It is crucial that if you paint with a 2-part (A-grip or I-ron) thoroughly protect yourself with high quality gloves, goggles and a paintsuit and hood to cover all skin AND MOST IMPORTANT....a super high quality respirator!!! 2-part paints will kill you quick!! Seen it happen - fast acting poison!!!

Good luck!
Yup, epoxy fumes will give you an agonizing death as your lungs stop working due to the fumes killing off their ability to transfer oxygen into your system. The fumes will also coat your eyes for a permanent blindness. Poly paints a bit nicer.

Spray paints, if directed at the skin will penetrate and deliver a very lethal epoxy poisoning to your blood stream. Enjoy.

I still maintain that for most cruising boats, good old fashion house paints work as well as anything else, and way lot cheaper and easier to remove for the next time you paint. Safer too. Otherwise, get an insurance policy on your life and a huge liability policy in case you kill off some tiny tot that happens by while your painting with poisons.
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Old 25-02-2016, 10:44   #17
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Re: Painting with awl grip

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Yup, epoxy fumes will give you an agonizing death as your lungs stop working due to the fumes killing off their ability to transfer oxygen into your system. The fumes will also coat your eyes for a permanent blindness. Poly paints a bit nicer.

Spray paints, if directed at the skin will penetrate and deliver a very lethal epoxy poisoning to your blood stream. Enjoy.

I still maintain that for most cruising boats, good old fashion house paints work as well as anything else, and way lot cheaper and easier to remove for the next time you paint. Safer too. Otherwise, get an insurance policy on your life and a huge liability policy in case you kill off some tiny tot that happens by while your painting with poisons.
You've sort of picked up a few facts, some assumptions, and some nonsense, and then randomly mixed them together.

Epoxy fumes are not exactly good for you but the main problem is an allergic reaction. This takes a while to develop, so it's a good idea to always protect yourself as the allergy develops accumulatively.

The poisoning you refer to, and a real, genuine danger, is from spraying 2-part polyurethane paints. The danger is less when you brush or roll 2-part polyurethane. It's lesser still when you use 1-part poly.

Of course, always protect yourself appropriately, but the suggestion that using anything other than household paints will kill you is ludicrous.
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Old 25-02-2016, 10:53   #18
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Re: Painting with awl grip

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Originally Posted by Titch71 View Post
Hi All,
I am currently researching the costs of painting the hulls only (not topside) of 44 ft catamaran over gel coat. The Gel Cot is blue and quite faded as its 10 years old. I have been told it needs 6 coats of epoxy (2 types) and 2 coats of topcoat. Was wondering if anyone has done something similar and what the indicative costs would be.

Thanks
As others have mentioned, the first step is to determine if the gelcoat can be restored. This will be much less expensive, time consuming, will be more easily repairable, and durable.

Do a test on a small area first. (e.g. inside hull near transom, as long as it represents typical oxidation).

Time how long it takes to do a 2ft a 2 ft square.

Multiply this time by the number of total square feet required to be done, divided by 4. This is about how long the job will take. Can you afford the time? Can your body take it? If not consider hiring it out.

At the start of my "Fibreglass" seminars (yacht clubs, and marine retailers), I pick the biggest guy, hand him a polisher and ask him to hold it away from his face, 6" above eye level. Then I proceed with the presentation. When I see his arms start to come down, I say, "Ah ah, hold it up, we only have 2 hours of presentation to go; if you can't hold it up for 2 hours, forget about polishing your boat which could easily take 48."

Everyone laughs.

For minor gelcoat defects, do spot gelcoat repairs.

If there are too many gelcoat repairs, to spot, or if the gelcoat is worn so thin that underlying glass is starting to show, a coating is required.

First preference for coating is gelcoat, again because it is so durable and easily repairable (at least by a gelcoat expert), and will retain maximum vessel value. Lots of initial sanding and polishing unless you are a genius with a sprayer. (I'm OK, but no genius.) It should last for 20 years colours, and 40 years whites (typical use and abuse).

The next best option is two part polyester paint (e.g. Awlgrip). It is less durable but will maintain gloss longer. It is not easily repairable (to be invisible). This is first choice for dark colours. Never requires polish (and can't be or the finish is damaged.) Plan to redo every 10 years for darks or 20 years for whites.

The next best option is one part paint (e.g. Interlux Brightsides). I do everything I can to dissuade people from this. It will look great initially, and is somewhat repairable and polishable, but requires many coats to prevent show through, and just isn't durable. Plan to redo every 5 - 7 years.

My last preference is acrylic coating (Vertiglas, PoliGlow, etc.) This looks great initially. It requires about the same amount of time to prep, to get all dirt and stains off the boat before sealing in. It reacts with Sunblock when one leans against it to make a gooey mess. It is slippery when wet. Annual maintenance coats require the boat to be spotless before sealing in anything, making it take much longer than just wax.

Sooner or later it will need to be stripped (sometimes in as little as 3 years). This is a brutal job. I get lots of RFQs to paint boats that were acrylic coated. Removing the stuff is often 30% of job cost or higher.

Disclosure: Sheen Marine applies, repairs, and maintains marine finishes professionally. This post is offered as friendly, free advice and not intended to solicit business.

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Old 25-02-2016, 11:09   #19
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Gelcoat Restoration Tips

Here is some info from my gelcoat restoration estimating software.

Gelcoat Condition
Descrip Appear Steps Devalue
Bad Oxide Chalky 5 25%
Oxide Opaque 4 20%
Mild Oxide 2" Gloss 3 15%
Non-Oxide 4" Gloss 2 10%
New 6" Gloss 1 5%

Steps
5 wet sand
4 coarse compound
3 fine compound
2 polish
1 wax

To estimate how much your boat is devalued by the current gelcoat condition if nothing is done, take the current listing price of the best examples for your make, model, year and subtract 20% to get avg sell price for an excellent condition boat.

From that multiply the percentage devalue above. This is how much not doing it, will cost you in lost current value of your boat.

(Of course there are reasons for proceeding beyond market value, including perhaps more importantly, pride of ownership.)

Once the gelcoat is restored annual maintenance depends on season length and sun severity. Typically 1 or 2 wax applications per year, with a pre-polish required annually is sunny full season climates and maybe every 2 or 3 years in northern 6 month seasons.

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Old 25-02-2016, 12:15   #20
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Re: Painting with awl grip

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
You've sort of picked up a few facts, some assumptions, and some nonsense, and then randomly mixed them together.

Epoxy fumes are not exactly good for you but the main problem is an allergic reaction. This takes a while to develop, so it's a good idea to always protect yourself as the allergy develops accumulatively.

The poisoning you refer to, and a real, genuine danger, is from spraying 2-part polyurethane paints. The danger is less when you brush or roll 2-part polyurethane. It's lesser still when you use 1-part poly.

Of course, always protect yourself appropriately, but the suggestion that using anything other than household paints will kill you is ludicrous.
So you can not read, well no big deal. I did not say paints will kill you; they may if mishandled. Duh. Secondly you are incorrect. Sensitization to epoxy paint fumes can occur at any time, even first time use. We have seen a case where the inflammation was advanced to the point the person needed artificial respiration to live. I have also dealt with a case where a person, using a spray gun, accidentally sprayed his eyes with a two part paint system. He wound up needing cornea transplants and some extensive surgery to his sinuses. But perhaps your vast knowledge far exceeds a lowly surgeon with 45 years of experience.
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Old 25-02-2016, 12:22   #21
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Re: Painting with awl grip

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Originally Posted by CHRIS V CLEMENT View Post
I have a 1973 Gulfstar 41 that suffered cosmetic "topside rash" during Hurricane Katrina. I used Awlgrip to refinish the topsides. The finish looks as good today as it did when it was first applied 8 years ago. It is durable and easy to touch up, if needed. In my opinion, the real key to success is to find a painter who has a track record of successful topside paint spray applications. Get some references and look at the work. Seabrook Marine in New Orleans did my work. I typically have them polish the topsidesl every three years while they are renewing my Trinidad SR bottom paint.
Agreed on your suggestions for finding a painter, but...

You can't polish Awlgrip. (Perhaps the word "polish" was used to represent "maintenance".)

The only thing one can do to maintain Awlgrip is apply Awlwash and Awlcare, a liquid polymer.

The gloss finish of Awlgrip is only a few microns thick, and polishing will destroy the gloss instantly.

There is another product by Akzo Nobel (parent company) called Awlcraft.

It is a completely different formulation than Awlgrip. (Not sure if it can be polished but I know that it recommended for spray only.)

The company has removed the metallic colours from the Awlgrip line, as one should not roll and tip metallics, as it is too difficult to maintain consistent appearance. Now metallics are only available in Awlcraft, as they know it is going to be sprayed (if directions are followed).
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Old 25-02-2016, 12:36   #22
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Re: Painting with awl grip

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Yup, epoxy fumes will give you an agonizing death as your lungs stop working due to the fumes killing off their ability to transfer oxygen into your system. The fumes will also coat your eyes for a permanent blindness. Poly paints a bit nicer.

Spray paints, if directed at the skin will penetrate and deliver a very lethal epoxy poisoning to your blood stream. Enjoy.

I still maintain that for most cruising boats, good old fashion house paints work as well as anything else, and way lot cheaper and easier to remove for the next time you paint. Safer too. Otherwise, get an insurance policy on your life and a huge liability policy in case you kill off some tiny tot that happens by while your painting with poisons.
All paint requires proper handling with proper protective equipment.

The requirements for some formulations is different than for others.

For all types, there are additional inherent risks when sprayed.

In general, latex house paint is less hazardous than alkyd house paint, that is less hazardous than most one part marine paints, that are less hazardous than 2 part marine paint.

In all cases, read and follow the manufacturers instructions and MSDS.

IMHO, latex house paint is no where near equal in performance to two part marine paint. Not even close.

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Old 25-02-2016, 12:39   #23
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Re: Painting with awl grip

Mark...first off I did not get broad based on my protection suggestions saying that using all paints other than household paints would kill you. The initial thread asked about using awlgrip to paint his boat and I simply encouraged him to fully protect himself if he was to proceed this way. Isocyanates are prevalent in 2-part paints and are poisionous. They can affect folks in different ways and as you mentioned, the "allergic" reaction can come instantly or may require several different paint projects or may never occur at all. The single part paints sprayed or rolled and tipped, are very tame as compared to the 2-part paints but still require a level of caution as to not absorb the contents through skin or the lungs - gloves and good ventilation are usually sufficient. I'm in the boat biz and I unfortunately was witness to a dramatic adverse reaction where the guy who spray painted his boat using awlgrip in his garage later the same died...so I weighed strongly from that experience and sent my initial reply to perhaps save a life...Cheers!
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:09   #24
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Re: Painting with awl grip

I just painted our boat with Awlcraft SE and it was a reasonable amount of work with a medium learning curve. In my opinion a great way to go.


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Old 26-02-2016, 06:43   #25
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Re: Painting with awl grip

Perhaps our resident surgeon knows more about histamine reactions than paints. Epoxy paints are NOT linear polyurethane paints. AwlGrip, the paint in question, is a linear polyurethane (LPU) paint. NOT an epoxy.

AG is nasty stuff, in any case. All paints are fairly nasty. Anyone is well advised to wear protection regardless of the substance, and also whether painting or sanding.

Here is a primer on the differences between paints:

Epoxy Paint - Urethane Polyurethane LPU MCU coatings
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Old 27-02-2016, 14:26   #26
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Re: Painting with awl grip

This thread is as bad as Prop Wars and Anchor Wars.

Seriuosly, I am planning to redo my water line and cove strip on our Beneteau.

I do intend to use Awgrip or Perfection.

A friend just had his top sides done with Awgrip. Rolled and tipped. It looks very good however I watched it applied directly to the clean sanded gelcoat. No Primer.

So I ask. IS PRIMER A MUST?

The cost to do his Catalina 387 was about the same as two good high end cut polish and wax. Seems to be a good long term alternative to annual detailing.

Any thoughts

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Old 27-02-2016, 14:39   #27
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Re: Painting with awl grip

To the original question OP, if you want a example, a 45 ft power cat with 3 coats of 545 and 3 coats of Awlgrip we charge 12000 u$ , just to point that the hull was in bad shape, lots of fairing and filling, the bridge take a lot of paint and primer..... just a example.
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Old 28-02-2016, 06:47   #28
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Re: Painting with awl grip

Neilpride, that sounds like a very good price to paint a 45 cat with 3 coats of Awlgrip. Does that include all materials? If I am reading this right this also includes the bridge deck and all fairing and filling. If so please let us know where your at, you may have another customer for a paint job.


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Old 28-02-2016, 07:51   #29
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Re: Painting with awl grip

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Originally Posted by CampDavid View Post
This thread is as bad as Prop Wars and Anchor Wars.

Seriuosly, I am planning to redo my water line and cove strip on our Beneteau.

I do intend to use Awgrip or Perfection.

A friend just had his top sides done with Awgrip. Rolled and tipped. It looks very good however I watched it applied directly to the clean sanded gelcoat. No Primer.

So I ask. IS PRIMER A MUST?

The cost to do his Catalina 387 was about the same as two good high end cut polish and wax. Seems to be a good long term alternative to annual detailing.

Any thoughts

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Take a close look at Alexseal as opposed to Awlgrip. Have used both and found Alexseal to be the better product.

Priming is cheap insurance to make sure you have good adhesion to your old paint.

It also acts as a "tie-coat" or base coat in the chemical process of providing the best depth of gloss.
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Old 28-02-2016, 08:11   #30
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Re: Painting with awl grip

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
You've sort of picked up a few facts, some assumptions, and some nonsense, and then randomly mixed them together.

Epoxy fumes are not exactly good for you but the main problem is an allergic reaction. This takes a while to develop, so it's a good idea to always protect yourself as the allergy develops accumulatively.

The poisoning you refer to, and a real, genuine danger, is from spraying 2-part polyurethane paints. The danger is less when you brush or roll 2-part polyurethane. It's lesser still when you use 1-part poly.

Of course, always protect yourself appropriately, but the suggestion that using anything other than household paints will kill you is ludicrous.
Especially since many home depot or household paints also contain isocyanates!
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