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Old 19-02-2008, 00:42   #31
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How did this happen?? (capsized cat, that is)
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Old 19-02-2008, 02:25   #32
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Yup, you are right Catty there is a picture of a capsized cat and it is stilll floating, but if you put on your goggles and snorkel I bet you would see a lot more boats at the bottom under the sea and they would all be mono-hulls - stop being an ignorant imbecile
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Old 19-02-2008, 03:01   #33
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Be fair ireaney - he is right - there are pictures of many monos that didnt capsize

Including the one below - it didnt capsize at all, its still the right way up! That is clearly better than capsizing - I mean you could at least climb the mast on the mono, good thing the water is only a few feet deep.

The issue with this storm isn't mono v multi, its why moorings broke, what the weather warning process was, what systems are in place to provide info to casual visitors on options - eg round to shute or over to gulnare - maybe in the marina, if all we learn from this is we have a another mono - multi debate well that wouldnt be very JOLLi indeed it could be construed as being CATTY.

I am interested to know what happened with the capsized cat, the winds in the storm were not cyclonic (they were strong though) so I look forward to hearing some facts, I dont actually think we will learn much from the seawind on the rocks, a glass boat on rocks with pounding seas is a glass boat on rocks with pounding seas irrespective of how many hulls, having said that - that tri on the rocks looked in remarkably good nick, wonder what the story was there.

I don't know about catty, I dont know if he has ever actually sailed or where and on what, I have sailed in the whitsundays on and off over twenty years or more, beaut place but that morring field is well exposed to northerly winds, which is what this was, mind you the winds are trades from SE most of the time. Bad luck, bad mooring design or manitenance, horror and loss for the people involved.



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Old 19-02-2008, 03:03   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Sorry, but I don't see this as a 'pissing match'. Whether the Prout sank is open for debate; what is not, is that not all cats are unsinkable. Whether the rig on the Prout would have shown flaws in a proper inspection conducted prior to crossing the Atlantic will never be known; that such inspections are important can hardly be a topic of debate. Whether the Outremer could have been saved by deploying a series-drogue or some other technique will never be known, but it can surely be the topic of debate. Whether we ever get the 'real' facts is questionable (as is often the case with mishaps or disasters in the air or at sea), but it shouldn't stop us from considering the possibilities and ramifications in an effort to better understand the risks we face in going to sea. If we were looking for a definitive answer for either incident, I would agree with you. But really, it strikes me that all we are doing is saying: if it was this, then this might have helped; if it were that, then...

I for one consider it to be a useful exercize, recognizing the built-in limitations. You apparently do not. And that, my friend, is not a pissing match, its just a difference of opinion.

Brad
The buoyancy of cats has been discussed many times before .
It is really easy to make the calculation if a boat will or will not float after a capsize.
If one takes the loaded weight of a boat ( Cat ) and calculate all the positive floatation on the boat and subtract one figure from the other the result is known.
If the outcome is even the boat will stay on the surface but barely.
For that reason I feel that the positive floatation should be at least 50 % more in volume than the actual weight of the boat.
We actually work with 100 % extra floatation.
Even if a boat has less floatation on board than the actual weight it can still float because of trapped air in the hulls and it probaly will float because of this air but one cannot count on it.

Gideon
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Old 19-02-2008, 03:36   #35
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'And no, not all cats are unsinkable. This was an older Prout which did not have the bouyancy compartments that are contained in many newer designs. Thanks SOUTHERN STAR.
Amazing how even (mono) mags are prepared to believe anything bad about Cats. I was surprised it even got a mention as a non-competitior. There were several other mono's in dire distress but what can you expect! Seriously, though, and there's enough mud slinging going on, it's dangerous for any one out there. By reading this site I've picked up on so much, including going up the mast and checking rigging before each cruise leg. AND getting a surveyors report, which hopefully would include a comment on lack of boyancy spaces. Prout 31 should be ocean capable, if a little small to be a live aboard. If you need to sail you accept the risk and balance the need against the risk. I'm hoping a Prout 34 will do the job for me, so - .
If anyone knows SPAM's people please advise what happened. Sympathy and commiserations to them for a tense time and the loss of their boat.
The purpose of exchanging information and views is to improve our knowledge. Learning to sort that information is one of the skills. Understanding the other view is another I'm working on. It's never really black and white out there, just keeping errors to a minmum.
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Old 19-02-2008, 04:44   #36
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I'm with you Eleven. The owner is a regular on Multihull Sailing - Information and Members Forum and you can express your condolences there (as well as get some pictures of his boat and from the start of his cruise prior to the dismasting).

The Prout is certainly ocean-going and a collapsed rig can hole any frp hull if it is not cut loose from the boat fast enough. It is also noteworthy that it had still not sunk prior to his rescue.

Brad

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Old 19-02-2008, 06:32   #37
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Cape Creux is a very special spot on the Mediterranean coast. Brutal sea and waves may occur quickly, unpredictably and it is a well known bad place, where one can get caught by surprise. A monohull over canvased in this surprising and fast changing weather would at most put its sails in the water, and quickly recover. A big cat, in the same situation will probably flip over or break something.
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Old 19-02-2008, 09:59   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Sorry, but I don't see this as a 'pissing match'. Whether the Prout sank is open for debate; what is not, is that not all cats are unsinkable. Whether the rig on the Prout would have shown flaws in a proper inspection conducted prior to crossing the Atlantic will never be known; that such inspections are important can hardly be a topic of debate. Whether the Outremer could have been saved by deploying a series-drogue or some other technique will never be known, but it can surely be the topic of debate. Whether we ever get the 'real' facts is questionable (as is often the case with mishaps or disasters in the air or at sea), but it shouldn't stop us from considering the possibilities and ramifications in an effort to better understand the risks we face in going to sea. If we were looking for a definitive answer for either incident, I would agree with you. But really, it strikes me that all we are doing is saying: if it was this, then this might have helped; if it were that, then...

I for one consider it to be a useful exercize, recognizing the built-in limitations. You apparently do not. And that, my friend, is not a pissing match, its just a difference of opinion.

Brad
Brad,
My apologies. You are correct. Debate is a good thing. Debate when one has all the facts is even better. I don't think all the facts are available just yet because it is just too soon. I'm sure you have noticed the press in general is notoriously bad at getting all the facts correct the first time around. It will be interesting to know what happened over the next few weeks. You didn't, but it irks me when others jump to conclusions at the first news reports which as I already said, usually contain errors about a situation.

Cheers
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Old 19-02-2008, 11:59   #39
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Thanks David, and I of course agree about the inaccuracy of so many press reports. And Elie, I have no idea how you feel you are able to conclude from the fate of one boat that capsized in one area, that in similar circumstances the following is true:
1. big cats would probably capsize or break something. 2. a monohull would at most put its sails in the water and quickly recover. Here are some things to consider:

1. Just as not all monohulls behave in the same way, it may surprise you that not all cats behave in the same way. The Outremer is clearly designed to favour performance over comfort and has an incredible record to prove it. Rather than comparing it with an ordinary monohull, it should really be compared with an all-out racing machine such as an Open 60 (which should come close to mirroring the performance of the Outremer). This means, amongst other things, a much greater sail area/displacement ratio than their slower cousins (and an increased risk, if sails are not reefed in time, of capsize).
2. Large Cats generally are far more resistant to a knockdown/capsize than a monohull (and this would include Outremers).
3. What will cause a capsize in either boat will depend not only upon the design, but also upon the seamanship of the skipper - ie, too much sail up, taking large seas beam-on etc.
4. In conditions that capsized (or pitchpoled) an Outremer, we can safely assume that the monohull (sailed with a similar degree of competence/incompetence) will not merely have a knock down, but will have also capsized/pitchpoled. Indeed, since the monohull would have capsized in conditions that would have left the Cat completely upright, in the same conditions the mono may have had numerous 'knockdowns' or capsizes by the time the cat first succumbed.
5. While the cat cannot right itself once inverted, the monohull should do so eventually - and I say should, because some modern racing monos (such as the Open 60's) have a huge period of inverse stability. They must rely upon a conscious skipper in the inverted craft to use hydrualics to swing over the keel if they are to right themselves. If hydraulics fail (or the skipper is knocked unconscious), the boat is likely to remain overturned until it sinks. Other performance oriented monos (including some used for 'performance cruising') with wide beams and flat sections aft are at risk of precisely the same fate.
6. Even if the monohull that has capsized does not initially sink, it will almost assuredly have suffered serious damage. It is extremely likely that the rig will have failed (and holes caused by the pounding of a still attached, but fallen rig against the hull of a boat has led to many sinkings). Further, the hatches/portlights may have imploded leaving gaping openings for each passing sea; this too increases the risk of sinking. At the very least, the boat will almost assuredly be loaded with water which entered through the companionway, cockpit lockers etc. This leaves the boat much more vulnerable to further capsizes and an eventual sinking.

All of the foregoing is the reason that current studies indicate that you are no more likely to capsize in a modern cruising cat, than you are to sink in a monohull. And like most of us, I would rather be on an inverted cat that is still afloat with a liferaft available for redundancy, than on a liferaft with my 'redundancy' on the bottom.

Brad

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Old 19-02-2008, 12:34   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elie View Post
Cape Creux is a very special spot on the Mediterranean coast. Brutal sea and waves may occur quickly, unpredictably and it is a well known bad place, where one can get caught by surprise. A monohull over canvased in this surprising and fast changing weather would at most put its sails in the water, and quickly recover. A big cat, in the same situation will probably flip over or break something.
For similarly sized boats, catamarans usually have around 4 times the stability of a monohull. So an event that would flip the cat would almost certainly have rolled the mono.
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