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Old 20-07-2006, 06:59   #16
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Talbot I found more infos about the outremeraccident. The boat was heading north in heavy seas,40 45 knots wind,around midnight,which means they were heading into the wind,it does not say if they were under sail or not,they first lost 2 crew menbers,then for some reason the boat went over.they never could launch the life raft,by the time the boat got real close from the rocky coast line,they got in the water,2 of the crew menbers got killed trying to land,the 2 others made it,among them the skipper.JC.
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Old 21-07-2006, 04:29   #17
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Extrapolating from the Specific to the General
Advice on generating “conventional wisdom”

1. If you’ve ever actually sailed a catamaran, generalize about the behaviour of all catamarans, in all conditions, from that one example.

2. If you’ve never been aboard a catamaran, retell the story you heard/read from someone who has, selectively adding your own little refinements, as necessary, to support whatever contention of which you’re enamored.

Over time, that one anecdote will be retold and altered enough to become “conventional wisdom" (common knowledge). This technique may be utilized to “prove” the most improbable hypotheses*.

* This approach also works well in proving that it’s essential to the cruisers’ safety that firearms be carried (or not) aboard at all times, or that vitamin c prevents (or causes) cancer.
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Old 21-07-2006, 04:39   #18
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Thank you Gord.I am just trying to understand what happened,and may be learn from it.JC.
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Old 21-07-2006, 05:08   #19
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JC:
And right you are; for, in the excellent company of George Santayana (“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.") and Aldous Huxley (“The most important thing we learn from history, is that we never learn from history.”) I too, am a believer in learning from the past.

I meant no disrespect, nor to minimize the value of studying successful and unsuccessful events, - merely to offer a general (humorous ?) cautionary observation.

Because the method is first inductive (sifting historical evidence to produce general truths), and then deductive (applying those truths to other, present circumstances taken to be more or less analogous), drawing useful and accurate general conclusions (from historical study) is often difficult. It is usually even harder to apply those lessons to current events, as they unfurl.

I’ll desist ...
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Old 21-07-2006, 07:07   #20
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gord.do we ever learn from from past experiences,probably not,we just become a little wiser as we mature.JC.
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Old 21-07-2006, 12:25   #21
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Sure we learn from past history.

I a real problem occurs, there is almost certainly a historical similarity which enables us to conclude the investigation much quicker
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Old 18-02-2008, 04:08   #22
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And it is quite clear that cruisers avoid the worst by delaying departure and arrival as weather dictates. We don't want to race, we want to get there, eventually.
Any news on this years Antlantic Rally for Cruisers (previously condemned on this site) where one cat was abandoned by liferaft.
The 31 ft SPAM, dismasted and holed, was not a part of the fleet, but the crew were rescued by Navillus Bavaria 50. Spam was last seen sinking!
Extract from Sailing News, UK.
Side Issue. How many cruisers get involved in rendering assistance.
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Old 18-02-2008, 04:35   #23
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If you want to see a recently capsized cat or what can happen to your moored cat , check out the carnage on sailing anarchy.. "Backpackers on the rocks" thread. Some very interesting pictures included.

The airlie beach blow certainly posses a few questions,like , Does a holed cruising cat float??
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Old 18-02-2008, 05:24   #24
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The backpackers were on a large sailing ketch MONOHULL - Thats like - you know a boat with one hull like, and its like not a CAT, the photos show one seawind 1000 that has the bottom completely torn off and its sitting on the rocks. Thats not the boat the backpackers were on, not even in the same part of the whitsundays

The bigger questions posed relate to weather warning systems in australia - government failures to broadcast weather on VHF, poor mooring laying by government officials - but all you can do you facile individual is search for something to reinforce your own predjudices.

Who actually are you - have you ever sailed a boat?

OH and where in all the photos was a recently capsized cat?

As for your other silly comment - look up "eroica" (spelling maybe a bit off) a fastback 43 that the guy tried to scuttle mid ocean - refused to sink, and was salvaged repaired and is sailing again.

So to answer your question - it sort of depends on the boat, whether there are rock walls to be smashed up against etc.

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Old 18-02-2008, 05:32   #25
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Eleven, Spam was not in the ARC but rather following the fleet. It is difficult to say if what caused his rig to fail would have been picked up in the ARC pre-race inspections, but it is entirely possible. Furthermore, while his rescue was effected by an ARC competitor, it was not done through their radio net; as I recall he actually contacted his local pub by sat phone and they contacted the authorites who put out a radio broadcast.

And no, not all cats are unsinkable. This was an older Prout which did not have the bouyancy compartments that are contained in many newer designs.

Brad
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Old 18-02-2008, 09:38   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post

And no, not all cats are unsinkable. This was an older Prout which did not have the bouyancy compartments that are contained in many newer designs.

Brad
The skipper of Spam (a Prout Quest 31) phoned his wife to tell her he was going to set off his EPIRB so she would not be (too) worried, spent 45 minutes releasing the rigging by undoing the fastenings, and, when picked up by another boat, Spam was 'down to its gunwale' on one hull. I suspect things may have been a bit more "rushed" if he had several tonnes of lead underneath.

Even then it was not obvious if the boat would sink.
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Old 18-02-2008, 10:43   #27
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Comparing a hobie Cat with a Cruising cat is hard , you are right they are both Cats but look at the sail area versus weight for a Hobie 16 for instance and a Cruising cat.
I recall a Hobie 16 weights around 240 lbs and has 18 squire meters or 210 squire feet a 1.5 squire meters of sail area per 10 kilo
A slow cruising cat has 10 squire meters per 1000 kilo or almost a factor 10 different a Performance cruising cat like the Fastcat 455 or the Gunboat 48 have a factor 5 compared with a hobie
We have 20 squire meters of sail per 1000 kilo of weight .
I do not know how they capsized/pitchpoled but chances are that a freak wave combined with a gust and or a slow reaction would probably have caused something like this.
I hope we will find out what the actual cause was since we can only learn from accidents like this.
I am very much in favor of using the Jordan series drogue in extreme wind conditions
This system works wonders.

my 2 cents
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Old 18-02-2008, 11:01   #28
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Instead of having a pissing match, lets wait untill the facts come to the surface. It always takes time to get all the facts of a news story and its usually the case that much of the first information is wrong.
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Old 18-02-2008, 11:25   #29
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Sorry, but I don't see this as a 'pissing match'. Whether the Prout sank is open for debate; what is not, is that not all cats are unsinkable. Whether the rig on the Prout would have shown flaws in a proper inspection conducted prior to crossing the Atlantic will never be known; that such inspections are important can hardly be a topic of debate. Whether the Outremer could have been saved by deploying a series-drogue or some other technique will never be known, but it can surely be the topic of debate. Whether we ever get the 'real' facts is questionable (as is often the case with mishaps or disasters in the air or at sea), but it shouldn't stop us from considering the possibilities and ramifications in an effort to better understand the risks we face in going to sea. If we were looking for a definitive answer for either incident, I would agree with you. But really, it strikes me that all we are doing is saying: if it was this, then this might have helped; if it were that, then...

I for one consider it to be a useful exercize, recognizing the built-in limitations. You apparently do not. And that, my friend, is not a pissing match, its just a difference of opinion.

Brad
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Old 18-02-2008, 23:25   #30
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Gee Factor, Which bit of "contained in the back packers on the rocks thread" did you understand??

The capsized cat is actually circled in one of the posts to make it easier for you to see.
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