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Old 28-04-2016, 03:23   #61
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
ok, see the point, thanks. However, I have never seen such sitaution in 18 mths on the ocean. Presume because east coast of au facing pacific with 1000s of miles of nothing but sea and some current and lots of weather. Best you get is swell only, and sub 7 kn is hard to sail, sure not at speeds you listed above.

Only thing I managed was doing 4 kn in 3 kn of wind in ideal direction, presume 60 true or so, somewhere in bay, flat seas and trying hard. I know it was in the morning and probably air heavier, and only 1x, so do no put any faith in this.
I guess we talk about the conditions we have but except on particular places and on the trade winds weak winds are common and also almost flat seas. A modern performance cruiser (multi or mono) will be doing upwind with 4k wind around windspeed at a favorable angle. The apparent wind will be of around 6K.

Light wind performance and easiness to reach close to hull speed are probably the two main performance advantages of a performance cruiser over an heavier boat, being the two others the easiness to reach speeds slightly above hull speed and reaching planning speeds on ideal conditions. Probably the last one is the more overrated.
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Old 28-04-2016, 03:44   #62
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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..
Would be nice to see them in the same wind speed.

Would be nice to have something better than approximate values.

....

I like both boats. Right now salivating over a Dazcat (in March YW, nice pictures)

Good news: not enough money in our Panama papers ;-)

Cheers,
b.
It is hard to find valid comparative data on boats and in what regards racing and ARC it all depends on how well they are sailed but regarding Dazcats and TS42 there are some interesting comparative data on a main race where most boats are well raced, I mean the Fastnet. Have fun digging out the data

Results
Results 2013 | Results

In 2015 the conditions were mostly light winds, upwind and downwind.

Of course I still prefer ARC for comparative results since here boats are on racing trim and not loaded but even if the performance will diminish with a cruising load I believe that the comparative performances will be roughly maintained, I mean, the boats will be slower but the faster would still be faster, assuming identical proportional (to size) light cruising loads.
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Old 28-04-2016, 06:37   #63
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Yep.

Whenever the wind drops off and we find ourselves in leftover seas ...

I can only imagine there are places in the world where local weather has a lot of the above and if I lived there I would likely relocate to where I could sail, be it very rough and windy or else light and FLAT.

I do like flat. Going to San Miguel two years ago we sailed thru most spectacular calm flat seas - any puff would push as a couple of miles ahead and when there was no wind we simply read books and watched the sea. We had similar conditions sailing our from Darwin. But not in many other 'calm' areas.

Give me flat sea and any amount of wind and I am happy. ;-)

b.
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Old 28-04-2016, 07:20   #64
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

I race in Sydney Harbour and outside the Heads and we haven't had many sub 10 knots weekend days for a while. On Friday evenings for twilights is another story...


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Old 28-04-2016, 07:36   #65
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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I race in Sydney Harbour and outside the Heads and we haven't had many sub 10 knots weekend days for a while. On Friday evenings for twilights is another story...


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last monday it was lots of sub 10 outside heads. I reached new high in my sail trim technique as managed to keep pace with around 40 ft mono in 8-12 kn true, 35 to 38 apparent, rolly seas, which is bad point of sail for cat. Needless to say, most monos were motoring!

Got some new ideas for upwind sail trim in mean time. Looking forward to test.

flat seas and reasonable wind is academic reality only. Always sea condition adds extra dimension.
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Old 28-04-2016, 07:43   #66
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Syndey ...

One of few places left on my bucket list.

I watch Sydney Hobart start every year and every year I feel a stronger itch to return to Australia.

One day.

Not sure there can be any better mix of boat and ocean than sailing a cat in Australia. Some people are just lucky to be born where the best things abound. And when it is a performance boat then it is feels almost unfair! ;-)

Cheers,
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Old 28-04-2016, 07:45   #67
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
last monday it was lots of sub 10 outside heads. I reached new high in my sail trim technique as managed to keep pace with around 40 ft mono in 8-12 kn true, 35 to 38 apparent, rolly seas, which is bad point of sail for cat. Needless to say, most monos were motoring!



Got some new ideas for upwind sail trim in mean time. Looking forward to test.



flat seas and reasonable wind is academic reality only. Always sea condition adds extra dimension.

Sounds like you're enjoying the boat and the conditions. We're going to keep the good weather for a bit so fingers crossed you'll have plenty of opportunity to try out your ideas

The winter series starts on Sunday so I'm looking forward to getting back out after a short break


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Old 28-04-2016, 09:06   #68
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Interesting point about swell. it got me thinking about Ridge and Furrow agriculture and how it increases the surface area. A lighter boat will have further to travel if it has to ride over swell for the same wind speed. There are clearly other variables as well - rig age, load, swell direction, competence of crew and skipper. I also note that the OP was commenting on acceleration as opposed to top speed or capability in sea conditions and that made for an interesting observation.

+1 for the comments on the Dazcat and the funds to even look at it.
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Old 28-04-2016, 17:17   #69
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
last monday it was lots of sub 10 outside heads. I reached new high in my sail trim technique as managed to keep pace with around 40 ft mono in 8-12 kn true, 35 to 38 apparent, rolly seas, which is bad point of sail for cat. Needless to say, most monos were motoring!

Got some new ideas for upwind sail trim in mean time. Looking forward to test.

flat seas and reasonable wind is academic reality only. Always sea condition adds extra dimension.
I have lost count of the number of times I have delivered boats between Sydney and Brisbane/Southport. roughly 75% of the time a fair bit of the trip has been less than 15 knots from the starboard quarter, a boat that sails well will truck along at 8-10 in that, a boat that doesn't will be motoring.

The best sail was consistent 22 knots SW, flat sea and the (good reasonably performing) boat with a reefed main and jib trucked along at 13-16 knots hour after hour. Truly great sail.
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Old 29-04-2016, 04:59   #70
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Interesting point about swell. it got me thinking about Ridge and Furrow agriculture and how it increases the surface area. A lighter boat will have further to travel if it has to ride over swell for the same wind speed.

A good observation, made me think that in theory round / flat bottom boats have less wetted surface and so are faster in flat water. In practice V shaped hulls would travel through the swell as opposed to over it. I felt O51 was climbing and sliding down every wave.

Think the same goes for the currently fashionable inverse bows. The look fast and "wave-piercing" but they just shift buoyancy lower. Good for flat water, or perhaps very fast boats, less so for cruising boats. Like spoilers or low front fender on a family sedan.


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Old 29-04-2016, 05:08   #71
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Yes. Inverse bows must assist in generating lift, and additionally contribute towards counteracting a pitchpole and reduce slapping. This would be generally a good thing but not necessarily the most comfortable in a sea. A monohull will get buoyancy from the flare in the bows when taking a wave in a different way, and the most comfortable still have traditional bows.
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Old 02-05-2016, 01:31   #72
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Outremer just bought gunboat out of bankruptcy so get ready for exiting things.

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Old 02-05-2016, 10:36   #73
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Check out a couple of my videos from LGM a few weeks ago giving a tour of the Outremer 4x and the Nautitech Open 46:




Gary
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Old 02-05-2016, 11:37   #74
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Check out a couple of my videos from LGM a few weeks ago giving a tour of the Outremer 4x and the Nautitech Open 46:




Gary
Hi Gary, great videos, thanks for sharing them! I looked at the O45 in Miami and liked the boat but had the same impressions you did regarding the livability of the interior spaces. Perfect for a weekend or couple week get away, maybe not so much for extended cruising. That is what led me to the O51, since it is about the starting point I would say for long term cruising interior space. Did you get an opportunity to walk through one of those? Just curious if it was also on your shopping radar as well?

I was hoping the Open 46 was going to be in Miami, but they only had the Open 40...which although I liked, I felt was a little too small interior wise. The boat you got to test sail looked great! Did you pull the trigger? Any other boats on your short list you are going to be checking out still?
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Old 02-05-2016, 12:05   #75
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Hi Gary, great videos, thanks for sharing them! I looked at the O45 in Miami and liked the boat but had the same impressions you did regarding the livability of the interior spaces. Perfect for a weekend or couple week get away, maybe not so much for extended cruising. That is what led me to the O51, since it is about the starting point I would say for long term cruising interior space. Did you get an opportunity to walk through one of those? Just curious if it was also on your shopping radar as well?

I was hoping the Open 46 was going to be in Miami, but they only had the Open 40...which although I liked, I felt was a little too small interior wise. The boat you got to test sail looked great! Did you pull the trigger? Any other boats on your short list you are going to be checking out still?
We did look at the Outremer 51 and liked it but we are really trying to stay in the 45' foot range for a variety of reasons. One blog you should check out is the following:
https://sailwildling.com/
Doug is the owner of a 5x, but he does a great job of laying out the case for the larger boat.

The Maryland rep for Bavaria told me that they will have an Open 46 Fly version in the Annapolis Fall show. We are close to buying, just trying to clear some things up regarding my business. Currently the Open 46 is sold through Hull 20+. Earliest delivery is now spring of 2017. So we want to get a production slot assigned pretty quickly.

Gary
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