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Old 25-04-2016, 20:17   #46
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by Naughty Cat View Post
Thanks. I have only looked at the Outremer 45, not the 51. Yes, it was the 47 carbon and I agree about the tillers - great fun but just that. Still, the OP spoke about 15 knots breeze, 40 degrees and 10-11. Am I right that what you are saying is that the Catana performance is going to tail off significantly as the breeze drops?
Look higher up the thread exchange re Outremer 4X.

This one pitches closer to Catana Carbon 47. Now we are talking a 8 tonnes boat vs. an 11 tonnes one (33% weight difference), with major differences in hulls symetries too. On top of that some 16% SA more downwind (downwind is when you deduct your speed from the wind speed, opposite for upwind work, in broad terms, bummer). Expect differences in performance.

As for light vs. strong winds. Great performance boats show their supremacy best in light winds sailing. This is where SA and weight differences show in exponential way. This is why, if a class is open, racing boats end up with huge rigs and tootbrush handles are left ashore.

A light boat with plenty of sail will ghost, a heavier one with less sail will stop and (in cruising terms) start the engine SOONER. But engines and diesel are heavier than carbon, spectra and nylon, and so we go from heavier to heavier.

You are getting my drift.

I have sailed a Catana 47 from the pre carbon era. Great boat one of my all time faves in the cruising cat family. I like the 43 Ocean even better, would buy one if had that money.

b.
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Old 26-04-2016, 01:13   #47
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

And hence the small difference in the quality of the interior amongst other things. All very interesting, thank you. It's not just SOG in light airs I guess, as a monohull convert I haven't found a cruising cat yet that gives an engaging sail below 6-7 knots.
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Old 26-04-2016, 08:22   #48
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Light winds show how good the boat really is as well as how good the crew really is. It is easier when you come from the racing background - in every season you will get a handful of light wind races. You can't just abandon and start rowing. If you do, you: 1) never learn to sail in light winds, 2) never become a champion.

I am not sure how much can be done for sailors who started late and in heavy boats that simply stop in light winds. Probably not much but it is always worth trying on a calm day in a Laser or something. Perhaps you are a natural and can learn things even now. I started sailing at 4 and raced competitively from age 6 to about 21. Today the best kids start racing even earlier and they race in better more responsive boats.

At least, all other things equal, the light well performing boat gives EVERYBODY a chance to try. You cannot learn to feel it, feeling is innate or else developed very early with heaps of sensory data onto a very plastic neural network, but everybody can learn heaps when they truly care.

Our boat is a moderately responsive mono (a tub compared to any modern performance cruiser). We often sail on long after the expensive modern boats stop. No, we cannot sail circles around them. But we can keep on going long enough to avoid motoring. (Our last Caribbean to Azores run - engine hours: 8).

Light wind sailing is fun, and skill. Boats like Outremer are the best cruising tool one can get to have this fun and hone this skill.

b.
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Old 26-04-2016, 08:30   #49
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Unhappy Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Maybe because it is not a potential alternative. Or are you talking C47 - the Carbon Catana?

Well. C47 is:
- shorter (3 ft),
- heavier (by 10%),
- has less SA (by about 40%).

It will not match an Outremer 51, neither is it meant to.

Do not get hung up on the tillers: if you are sailing long offshore passages, you do not want to be sitting in the wind and sun any more than necessary.

It is easy to fully power up a boat on 20 knots of wind 35 apparent. It is a different story to sail fast well off the wind in light conditions. Light conditions predominate the long range cruising routes of the world (expect 15 knots of wind or less, from 150 to 180, most of the milk route).

They are just basically different concepts. Which does not take anything from Catana, which is a prime ship in her own league.

b.

I don't know where from you got these numbers but the factory specs for C 47 is 139 sqm vs. 132,5 sqm for O51. Yes, a ton heavier vs. 5 % more SA; that would make both boats very close to each other in terms of performance. Saying that "C47 would not match an O51" is exagerated to say the least.
Downwind, the O51 suggests larger genneaker than C 47 + lighter boat and she is expected to be a bit faster than C 47 on milk road, but not much. Equally loaded, O 51 would also be slightly faster in light winds up to 10-12 kts.

As I said earlier in AWA of around 70-80 and true of 15 kts he was a bit faster than our O51. Both boats are carbon stick, high tech sails but we were probably a bit more loaded than C47.

Interestingly, the owner's book of O 51 says that the boat shouldn't be pushed more than 9 kts upwind.. The boat can easily reach this speed without being stressed seemingly..

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 26-04-2016, 12:59   #50
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
The only production boat comparable to O51 in terms of price, performance and comfort is Catana carbon 47.
I haven't sailed this latter but seen one sailing next to me when I was on board of O51.
Both are coming at around a million USD with carbon mast, genset, A/C, high tech sails.
Catana is bit shorter in length but offers almost the same if not slightly more space.
O 51 is a real fun to sail, very responsive to trimming, very good saloon and cockpit but the cabins are a bit crampy for 51 ft boat. Finish is "average" for this price tag. Sails are easy to handle. (I don't like the Catana concept with huge winch on the aft and the lines running underneath the bridge to this winch..) .


We are doing some works on this O 51 in our yard and I can tell you that after sales doesn 't exist; there are some warranty works and Outremer didn't even bother to answer any of our questions so far.


Cheers


Yeloya
Probably the Bañuls 53 carbon made by McConaghy is faster but even if it is made by a single builder it is not properly a production boat. Lovely boat anyway.


MC2Catamarans :: BAÑULS 53
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Old 26-04-2016, 19:34   #51
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post

I don't know where from you got these numbers but the factory specs for C 47 is 139 sqm vs. 132,5 sqm for O51. Yes, a ton heavier vs. 5 % more SA; that would make both boats very close to each other in terms of performance. Saying that "C47 would not match an O51" is exagerated to say the least.

(...)
http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/en.../Outremer-51#4
Catana C47

Maybe I am looking up wrong boats. Sorry for that.

C47 displ 10.9
051 displ 9.9

C47 10% heavier

C47 SA (downwind) 170
O51 SA (downwind) 242

O51 43% more SA downwind

= IMHO give or take 50% pure speed potential downwind in light airs, say a knot to (maybe?) max 2 knots faster.

In real life ... ??? I do not know. I would bet my money on 051 by maybe 10% overall. Very often in heavy going light boats lose their edge and get matched by heavier boats. Both up and downwind. They seem to punch thru the chop better.

Why I leave upwind out of the equation is because as explained earlier it is not an issue to power up a boat upwind when your speed 'adds' to the wind speed. It is downwind where the speeds 'deduct' that they will start getting apart.

As for 'exaggerated'. OFF COURSE!!! ;-)

Frankly, I would have to sail both to tell you that I am anything but comparing figures and drawings as seen on the web. Should I get a chance to sail these boats next fall, I will report back if I find I was way off the mark with my theoretical assumptions.

With big hug,
b.
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Old 27-04-2016, 06:03   #52
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Light winds show how good the boat really is as well as how good the crew really is.

b.
can you enlighten me why is that so important, looks to me purely academic?

Light wind say <7kn may be relevant for lake sailor, but on ocean this is rare, and when it is, waves / swell dump sails so everyone motors.

Yup, also these 100 feet racing monos motor. I have seen it, except when in safe harbour as waves small enough
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Old 27-04-2016, 06:33   #53
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Interestingly, the owner's book of O 51 says that the boat shouldn't be pushed more than 9 kts upwind.. The boat can easily reach this speed without being stressed seemingly..

Cheers

Yeloya
maybe because of shrouds as they get loose and with jerky motion chance of rigging failure increases ....

this got me thinking : i should not push my lagoon past 9 kn upwind as well.
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Old 27-04-2016, 07:30   #54
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
can you enlighten me why is that so important, looks to me purely academic?

Light wind say <7kn may be relevant for lake sailor, but on ocean this is rare, and when it is, waves / swell dump sails so everyone motors.

You've obviously never sailed the Gulf of Mexico....
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Old 27-04-2016, 07:30   #55
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
can you enlighten me why is that so important, looks to me purely academic?

Light wind say <7kn may be relevant for lake sailor, but on ocean this is rare, and when it is, waves / swell dump sails so everyone motors.

Yup, also these 100 feet racing monos motor. I have seen it, except when in safe harbour as waves small enough
Hehehe - we all motor, sure. Except our diesel tank is only 10 gallows deep ... ;-)

Light, very light and calm patches:

- N Atlantic center of the Canary to Lucia route, patches up to 48hrs,
- N Atlantic West Indies towards the Azores,
- N to S Atlantic crossing - 150 to 600+ miles wide,
- Pacific out of Panama and beyond Galapagos 600 to 1100 miles,
- Indian out of Darwin and to Christmas, about 600 miles,

etc.

Your "...Light wind say <7kn may be relevant for lake sailor, but on ocean this is rare, and when it is, waves / swell dump sails so everyone motors..." actually answers your original question. Nearly everyone motors. Some will motor more and others will sail more.

We have not motored. We sailed right across all the light patches in a pretty conservative double-ender. This is what tells a sailor from a cruiser. A sailor likes sailing, also in light winds, a cruiser starts the donkey and off he goes. It does take a sailing boat and a sailing mind, and some skills. Nauticats likely do not apply.

Do not expect boats with big donkeys and huge loads of diesel to be able to ghost in light winds.

My take: if I had an Outremer, I would have been able to sail the light patches better, easier and faster. My belief. No proof.

I will disagree with you on frequency of less than 7 knots of wind as 'rare'. They were not rare when we sailed round the world (2003-2007).

We may just be sailing in different places and styles hence our perceived frequency of wind conditions and desired boat characteristics may differ.

b.
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Old 27-04-2016, 09:25   #56
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
can you enlighten me why is that so important, looks to me purely academic?

Light wind say <7kn may be relevant for lake sailor, but on ocean this is rare, and when it is, waves / swell dump sails so everyone motors.

Yup, also these 100 feet racing monos motor. I have seen it, except when in safe harbour as waves small enough
On a performance boat, being it monohull or multihull 7k is only slow if it is dead downwind and in that case it will be making about 3 to 4K VMG downwind (assuming loaded boat.)

With the wind at 135º should be making between 4.5 to 5.5K and at 90º should be making between 5.7 and 6.7K.

Directly against the wind, depending on the cases, normally the monohull will do a bit better and it will be doing against the wind a VMG between 3 and 4k and at 60º will be making 5.5 to 6.5K.

Yes I agree that with a swell the performance will suffer but sometimes you have light winds for many hours, sometimes days and then it is flat water almost all the time.

Sure you can motor faster than that, but for me (and for many) it is OK to sail at those speeds.
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Old 27-04-2016, 13:46   #57
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by Naughty Cat View Post
....took a Catana 47 out. We achieved similar figures - 19 knots breeze, 14 knots at about 35 apparent, one reef.

This and OP are the real numbers in this thread. Paper specs are just that.

So what I saw was:

C47 O51
19 15 TWS
35 40 AWA
14 10 SOG

Just glancing at these numbers I'd say C47 was faster.

I also took O51 for a test sail recently, with similar numbers. I don't have any experience with large cats, but this was NOT Hobie 16. And a lot of motion, as if there is too much buoyancy at the bottoms, or hulls were too round.


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Old 27-04-2016, 15:55   #58
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Hehehe - we all motor, sure. Except our diesel tank is only 10 gallows deep ... ;-)

Light, very light and calm patches:

- N Atlantic center of the Canary to Lucia route, patches up to 48hrs,
- N Atlantic West Indies towards the Azores,
- N to S Atlantic crossing - 150 to 600+ miles wide,
- Pacific out of Panama and beyond Galapagos 600 to 1100 miles,
- Indian out of Darwin and to Christmas, about 600 miles,

etc.

Your "...Light wind say <7kn may be relevant for lake sailor, but on ocean this is rare, and when it is, waves / swell dump sails so everyone motors..." actually answers your original question. Nearly everyone motors. Some will motor more and others will sail more.

We have not motored. We sailed right across all the light patches in a pretty conservative double-ender. This is what tells a sailor from a cruiser. A sailor likes sailing, also in light winds, a cruiser starts the donkey and off he goes. It does take a sailing boat and a sailing mind, and some skills. Nauticats likely do not apply.

Do not expect boats with big donkeys and huge loads of diesel to be able to ghost in light winds.

My take: if I had an Outremer, I would have been able to sail the light patches better, easier and faster. My belief. No proof.

I will disagree with you on frequency of less than 7 knots of wind as 'rare'. They were not rare when we sailed round the world (2003-2007).

We may just be sailing in different places and styles hence our perceived frequency of wind conditions and desired boat characteristics may differ.

b.
Where I sail - around sydney, I have not experienced yet below 7 kn and sailing conditions in 1700 miles with my boat. NO boat sailed in these conditions because of swell. In bays, it is different of course, as it is too much traffic I do not attempt to join crowd.

So I have no idea about light wind performance, although i would love to test my carbon screecher. The best I have done is in 8 kn in rolly seas using screecher, around 4-5 kn where only one other larger mono sailed. Everyone else motored. Spi could not be used although some tried.
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Old 27-04-2016, 16:13   #59
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by earthbm View Post

(...)

So what I saw was:

C47 O51
19 15 TWS
35 40 AWA
14 10 SOG

(...)
I plugged it in. Image attached.

Would be nice to see them in the same wind speed.

Would be nice to have something better than approximate values.

I am surprised so few sailors use data loggers. I sometimes play with it in our non racing boat. It tends to show 4 knots and I think I am beginning to feel the keel vibrate when we hit 6. ;-)

Seriously 'performance' guys, get data loggers, they are cheap to build and fun to use.

I like both boats. Right now salivating over a Dazcat (in March YW, nice pictures)

Good news: not enough money in our Panama papers ;-)

Cheers,
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Old 28-04-2016, 02:28   #60
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Re: Outremer 51 - so I took a test sail

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
On a performance boat, being it monohull or multihull 7k is only slow if it is dead downwind and in that case it will be making about 3 to 4K VMG downwind (assuming loaded boat.)

With the wind at 135º should be making between 4.5 to 5.5K and at 90º should be making between 5.7 and 6.7K.

Directly against the wind, depending on the cases, normally the monohull will do a bit better and it will be doing against the wind a VMG between 3 and 4k and at 60º will be making 5.5 to 6.5K.

Yes I agree that with a swell the performance will suffer but sometimes you have light winds for many hours, sometimes days and then it is flat water almost all the time.

Sure you can motor faster than that, but for me (and for many) it is OK to sail at those speeds.

ok, see the point, thanks. However, I have never seen such sitaution in 18 mths on the ocean. Presume because east coast of au facing pacific with 1000s of miles of nothing but sea and some current and lots of weather. Best you get is swell only, and sub 7 kn is hard to sail, sure not at speeds you listed above.

Only thing I managed was doing 4 kn in 3 kn of wind in ideal direction, presume 60 true or so, somewhere in bay, flat seas and trying hard. I know it was in the morning and probably air heavier, and only 1x, so do no put any faith in this.
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