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Old 10-10-2017, 21:01   #1
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Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

I've been thinking about the various outboard cats and the systems they use to raise and lower their outboards when needed. There's at least a few on here familiar with a couple of different designs. Also people familiar with saildrives.

Would it be possible to design a system similar to any of the outboard systems for raising and lowering a saildrive?

Also, I have seen a few lower power electric outboards but not many in the 20kw-30kw range? Can anyone help here with both specific options and any experience with them?

I'm aware I'm straying into warm territory with two topics people can get heated over so please try and stick to my questions rather than debate why I would ever want to do such crazy things Crazy is implied.
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Old 11-10-2017, 00:35   #2
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

We just use the power tilt system the motor came with.
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Old 11-10-2017, 00:59   #3
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

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We just use the power tilt system the motor came with.
I haven't seen the Oram setup, is it in a well? Do you have any pics?
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:03   #4
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

Some Shionnings have outboards in wells with a plate attached that closes off the hull opening.

Fastbacks have a custom universal free, pivoting leg design.

Then we have the retractable shaft systems


Each system has Pros and Cons.

An outboard mounted low enough to just require power tilt to clear the water will spend a lot of time underwater when hanging to a parra anchor or drouge in the nasty blue water stuff.

In answer to your question, its possible to design the system you describe, but my question would be , WHY?
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:14   #5
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

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Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
Would it be possible to design a system similar to any of the outboard systems for raising and lowering a saildrive?
I take it that you are referring to the outboard up/ down slides in an enclosed motor well type of arrangement that many Schionning designs use?
And you wish to adapt this to raise and lower a saildrive so that it is retractable to get the bottom of the leg up to above hull bottom in order to reduce drag when sailing? I apologise in advance if I've misinterpreted your questions.

I won't say it's impossible, because anything can be done, and I admire your ability to think out the box. BUT, it's going to be a mother of a setup in order to be strong enough to lift a saildrive and attached diesel engine. Engine plumbing and exhaust will also need to articulate up and down. There is more of this for a saildrive and diesel than an outboard, but getting exhaust gases outside the motor well would be an improvement on most Schionning outboard installations, which frequently suffer from poor engine idling due to exhaust asphyxiation.

You'd need to raise it high and dry and fit hull bottom flap seals of some type, as saildrive upper components and diesels will suffer much worse than outboards with constant salt exposure.

Someone's got to try these things!
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Old 11-10-2017, 02:03   #6
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

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I haven't seen the Oram setup, is it in a well? Do you have any pics?

Our setup is a bit of an improvement on the normal installation. I recessed the power head into the sheer panel, so the motor is entirely tucked in behind the chamfer panel.

When tilted the powerhead is actually above the bridgedeck.

There are some pics of a similar installation I did on another boat here: https://diy-yachts.com/forum/viewtop...=1008&start=10
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Old 11-10-2017, 02:19   #7
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
I take it that you are referring to the outboard up/ down slides in an enclosed motor well type of arrangement that many Schionning designs use?
I'm trying to not be prescriptive as I'm not familiar with all the options but essentially yes. I've seen pics of that type and seen the seawind one but no others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie
And you wish to adapt this to raise and lower a saildrive so that it is retractable to get the bottom of the leg up to above hull bottom in order to reduce drag when sailing? I apologise in advance if I've misinterpreted your questions.
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie
I won't say it's impossible, because anything can be done, and I admire your ability to think out the box. BUT, it's going to be a mother of a setup in order to be strong enough to lift a saildrive and attached diesel engine. Engine plumbing and exhaust will also need to articulate up and down. There is more of this for a saildrive and diesel than an outboard, but getting exhaust gases outside the motor well would be an improvement on most Schionning outboard installations, which frequently suffer from poor engine idling due to exhaust asphyxiation.
Indeed. An electric saildrive, however, does not suffer these cons and oceanvolt list their sd15 at 47kgs. A Honda 30 outboard is over 70kgs and diesel saildrives heavier again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie
You'd need to raise it high and dry and fit hull bottom flap seals of some type, as saildrive upper components and diesels will suffer much worse than outboards with constant salt exposure.

Someone's got to try these things!
The seawind type that lowers on a leg that pivots on the bridgedeck might be an option too.

It's worth an ask even just to learn more about these things
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:51   #8
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

If I was going to do this I would try something out of the box - based on something I saw on a Fastback 43.

On the big single diesel engine fastbacks, John Gross made a custom plate for the gearbox. This allowed the leg to rotate on the gearbox. He then mounted the engine east west and then rotating the leg (which was extended) allowed the leg to lift up fore and aft. You may have to think about this for a while.

So if I had to I reckon I could do the same sort of thing for twins in the hulls (not on the bridgedeck as in the Fastback 43).

You have the diesel mounted in the hulls (in fact being above the waterline would be good) You make similar pivoting attachment for the leg as the Fastbacks had. Extend the leg and the leg goes through the SIDE of the hulls. A gasket of some is needed and the gearbox would have to be okay with being at an angle but it would allow you to get twins on an Arrow and still take the bottom. (A cat that can't dry out is no cruiser) You could mount the motors backwards if you wanted.

Have a look at a Fastback 43 setup to see the pivoting extended leg - it is nicely engineered and works well. You would have two and if you designed and built the system in from the start of the build, it could work very well. I would think that having both diesels in the compartment aft of the aft bulkhead would work well.

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Old 11-10-2017, 05:41   #9
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

I don't see a problem

Without too much drama you could set up a sliding spline drive shaft to the sail drive to give you the vertical movement needed or to keep the motor lower a V drive where the secondary drive shaft angles up and down with the saildrive.

Why not a outboard ? Or 2.
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Old 11-10-2017, 05:52   #10
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

Electric drive would be much easier as the motor would just fit straight onto the top of the drive. Lift and lower the whole assembly just like the Schionning outboard wells. I think you can buy electric heads to go on top of an outboard leg?
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Old 11-10-2017, 06:13   #11
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

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Originally Posted by Dave_S View Post
Electric drive would be much easier as the motor would just fit straight onto the top of the drive. Lift and lower the whole assembly just like the Schionning outboard wells. I think you can buy electric heads to go on top of an outboard leg?
Here's another option, Yanmar's new DIESEL outboard. Claims lightweight, economical. In production this fall, but I can't find specific weight - or price - info
YANMAR LAUNCHES THE DTORQUE 111 TURBO DIESEL OUTBOARD - Yanmar Marine
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Old 11-10-2017, 06:37   #12
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
I've been thinking about the various outboard cats and the systems they use to raise and lower their outboards when needed. There's at least a few on here familiar with a couple of different designs. Also people familiar with saildrives..
You seem to fixed on the idea of the engines in the hull and therefore the shaft and propellors under each hull.

However, if you look at Atolls build of his 37' cat the single engine is mounted midships and the leg can lift. Silette have been building lifting legs for years.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ft-103739.html

sonic_sterndrive_and_saildrive_list

If you don't want the engine or engines, in the middle of the cockpit then stick it in one hull and use hydraulics to power the drive from a remote location.

Pete
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:14   #13
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

Many multihulls use the sled arrangement for outboards. Newick drew one for a inboard/saildrive arrangement where the whole thing pivots out of the water. Pretty heavy to do that so everything has to be strong enough.
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:17   #14
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

I have been pondering the same idea. But using a hydraulic motor on the saildrive. Allowing the saildrive to be raised/lowered in the water but diesel motor being in bottom aft of hulls.
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Old 11-10-2017, 17:32   #15
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
You seem to fixed on the idea of the engines in the hull and therefore the shaft and propellors under each hull.

However, if you look at Atolls build of his 37' cat the single engine is mounted midships and the leg can lift. Silette have been building lifting legs for years.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ft-103739.html

sonic_sterndrive_and_saildrive_list

If you don't want the engine or engines, in the middle of the cockpit then stick it in one hull and use hydraulics to power the drive from a remote location.

Pete
I was going to mention something about the Sonic/Sillette saildrive, but you beat me to it. I believe the old Kingfisher Sail Cats had one that tilted completely out of the water.
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