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16-10-2017, 18:44
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#16
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cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the water
Boat: OPBs
Posts: 1,370
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2
Many multihulls use the sled arrangement for outboards. Newick drew one for a inboard/saildrive arrangement where the whole thing pivots out of the water. Pretty heavy to do that so everything has to be strong enough.
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Do you have any more information on that? Or know where I can find it?
Thank you
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16-10-2017, 18:44
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#17
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cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the water
Boat: OPBs
Posts: 1,370
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7
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I definitely don't want to lose the advantage that cats have of two screws with some distance between them
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16-10-2017, 21:09
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Boat: Hedley Nicol Vagabond MK2, 37'
Posts: 1,110
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp12
Do you have any more information on that? Or know where I can find it?
Thank you
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Right here but bring a magnifying glass, https://www.amazon.com/ITS-NEWICK-Le...dp/0990327671/
The copy is small but you might try The Mariners Museum in Newport News Virginia who house the Newick collection to see if a larger copy is available. The book could have been stronger, it reads a bit like a young persons guide to Newick.
I got to help him on a sled design for one of his Tris because I happened to have the right model of outboard on a stand in front of me when I called for another reason. "Say, do you know the dimensions of..." It turned out to be fun and he liked input. I rolled my own after that, the main thing is to do the engineering for the loads and use safety factors. I've never heard anybody claim a sled entrance was too fine but plenty have commented about pounding when their sleds weren't fine enough on the entrance.
I suggest using vectra for the drop safety as in case of a engine fire you can cut the stop line to submerge the pod,
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16-10-2017, 21:15
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#19
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cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the water
Boat: OPBs
Posts: 1,370
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2
Right here but bring a magnifying glass, https://www.amazon.com/ITS-NEWICK-Le...dp/0990327671/
The copy is small but you might try The Mariners Museum in Newport News Virginia who house the Newick collection to see if a larger copy is available. The book could have been stronger, it reads a bit like a young persons guide to Newick.
I got to help him on a sled design for one of his Tris because I happened to have the right model of outboard on a stand in front of me when I called for another reason. "Say, do you know the dimensions of..." It turned out to be fun and he liked input. I rolled my own after that, the main thing is to do the engineering for the loads and use safety factors. I've never heard anybody claim a sled entrance was too fine but plenty have commented about pounding when their sleds weren't fine enough on the entrance.
I suggest using vectra for the drop safety as in case of a engine fire you can cut the stop line to submerge the pod,
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Thanks for that, that's really good info. And you met the man! That's a pretty cool experience.
Good tip with the vectra line too; I hadn't considered that.
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16-10-2017, 21:20
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Boat: Hedley Nicol Vagabond MK2, 37'
Posts: 1,110
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
I never got to meet him in person but we had long calls over the years starting in the 1980s. Time flies. But so do Newicks!
The vectra was one of my upgrade ideas.
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16-10-2017, 21:21
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#21
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,567
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
[QUOTE=Seaslug Caravan;2496682]... An outboard mounted low enough to just require power tilt to clear the water will spend a lot of time underwater when hanging to a parra anchor or drouge in the nasty blue water stuff..../QUOTE]
If the engine is transom mounted (a mistake) this is true. But if it is mid-ships mounted, as many are, this is quite incorrect.
In fact, the engines in the PDQ do quite well. However, smart owners use manual tilt instead of power tilt, because they lift higher.
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16-10-2017, 22:04
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW
Boat: Chamberlin 11.6 catamaran
Posts: 872
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
I am not sure that a sled arrangement is good for twins in a cat.
I had a pivoting nacelle - a sort of sled in the middle. As was stated by another poster - it was too broad and slammed on waves, even when raised.
My new twins are on pivoting nacelles, not really sleds. This is more like the Seawind 1000 style bracket with an attached fairing. It gets the motors right away when raised.
I would look really carefully at the Oram cats if you want a pivoting outboard arrangement. They can be quite clever in their details. But what is wrong with the Schionning style vertical outboards. A friend has these for his 1320 and he has Yanmar outboards.
cheers
Phil
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16-10-2017, 22:31
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Boat: Hedley Nicol Vagabond MK2, 37'
Posts: 1,110
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Those can be the lightest and most compact set up Phil, I've played with several designs but due to my cockpit layout the sled ticked more boxes. We were talking about a inboard style engine with outdrive in a sled/pod concept.
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17-10-2017, 02:12
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#24
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cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the water
Boat: OPBs
Posts: 1,370
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsketcher
I am not sure that a sled arrangement is good for twins in a cat.
I had a pivoting nacelle - a sort of sled in the middle. As was stated by another poster - it was too broad and slammed on waves, even when raised.
My new twins are on pivoting nacelles, not really sleds. This is more like the Seawind 1000 style bracket with an attached fairing. It gets the motors right away when raised.
I would look really carefully at the Oram cats if you want a pivoting outboard arrangement. They can be quite clever in their details. But what is wrong with the Schionning style vertical outboards. A friend has these for his 1320 and he has Yanmar outboards.
cheers
Phil
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The feedback on the Schionning design was that airflow is an issue for both overheating and fumes. I understand there's a fan designed in for this but I also understand the practice for starting the engines is to run the fans for a while before starting them. I've not cruised so I don't understand whether this is really an issue, or not. Is there any negative feedback from your friend with the 1320?
The Oram design does look good; I had a look at Alan's work.
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17-10-2017, 03:35
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW
Boat: Chamberlin 11.6 catamaran
Posts: 872
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Not a huge issue for him. More of an issue is the need for high freeboard aft. I can't fit the Schionning system on my cat. (As an aside the original cat with the Schionning system was a Pescott called Time Bandits - I remember someone saying that way back Jeff Schionning was very interested in it. Then in the end Time Bandits went to a single outboard, on the aft beam ,because of the issues you raise.)
There are other problems with raising outboards to do with cables and controls. A friend on a Chamberlin with raised outboards was having issues with the cables when I talked with him.
It really will depend on your boat. I can't do the Oram system because my boat doesn't have chamfer panels. I have rejigged the Seawind system and locked off the outboards. I pivot the nacelles. They almost go flat to the bridgedeck but an Arrow, with its chamfer panels would not suit this approach.
As stated before the similarities between the chamfer panels of the Orams and Schionnings would have me asking 44C to send me some more pics and talking to Oram builders. If you get rid of the vertical outboards you can get more of a walkthrough transom, or at least a lower walk than normal. Problems with the aft beam of course but that is a pretty easy fix.
Chamberlins have their outboards way forward, just behind the cabin bulkhead. But my outboards are way aft because Robin was a bit light on in the drawing department 20 years ago.
cheers
Phil
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17-10-2017, 05:56
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Schionning Waterline 1480
Posts: 1,987
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp12
The feedback on the Schionning design was that airflow is an issue for both overheating and fumes. I understand there's a fan designed in for this but I also understand the practice for starting the engines is to run the fans for a while before starting them. I've not cruised so I don't understand whether this is really an issue, or not. Is there any negative feedback from your friend with the 1320?
The Oram design does look good; I had a look at Alan's work.
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Air flow is definitely a problem for me and some others I have spoken to but not over heating. The air intake can be fixed.
Never had to run the fans before starting the engines. In fact I have removed the fans all together and leave the hatches partly open.
The original system lifted and lowered with hydraulics but was removed for a KISS system that simply runs a line to the motor through a clutch to the winch and it works just fine.
__________________
Regards
Dave
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18-10-2017, 22:38
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#27
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cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the water
Boat: OPBs
Posts: 1,370
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsketcher
Not a huge issue for him. More of an issue is the need for high freeboard aft. I can't fit the Schionning system on my cat. (As an aside the original cat with the Schionning system was a Pescott called Time Bandits - I remember someone saying that way back Jeff Schionning was very interested in it. Then in the end Time Bandits went to a single outboard, on the aft beam ,because of the issues you raise.)
There are other problems with raising outboards to do with cables and controls. A friend on a Chamberlin with raised outboards was having issues with the cables when I talked with him.
It really will depend on your boat. I can't do the Oram system because my boat doesn't have chamfer panels. I have rejigged the Seawind system and locked off the outboards. I pivot the nacelles. They almost go flat to the bridgedeck but an Arrow, with its chamfer panels would not suit this approach.
As stated before the similarities between the chamfer panels of the Orams and Schionnings would have me asking 44C to send me some more pics and talking to Oram builders. If you get rid of the vertical outboards you can get more of a walkthrough transom, or at least a lower walk than normal. Problems with the aft beam of course but that is a pretty easy fix.
Chamberlins have their outboards way forward, just behind the cabin bulkhead. But my outboards are way aft because Robin was a bit light on in the drawing department 20 years ago.
cheers
Phil
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I like the idea of the pivoting system like the Seawind. A long way out of the water and gets away from the vertical. Your setup sounds interesting but I'd very much like to see how they might work on another Schionning design.
Looks like there's a few owners happy with the vertical lift option from Schionning.
Cheers Phil. I've offered 44c a few beers to chew on his ear one day that might happen when we're nearer each other so I'll extend the same to you and note you're a lot closer than Alan is!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_S
Air flow is definitely a problem for me and some others I have spoken to but not over heating. The air intake can be fixed.
Never had to run the fans before starting the engines. In fact I have removed the fans all together and leave the hatches partly open.
The original system lifted and lowered with hydraulics but was removed for a KISS system that simply runs a line to the motor through a clutch to the winch and it works just fine.
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Thanks Dave. I'm happy to see the voice of experience and that you don't need the fan.
I've gotten some great info out of this thread, thanks all.
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23-10-2017, 04:20
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#28
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Multihulls - cats and Tris
Posts: 4,859
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Re: Outboard raising systems - adaptable to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan
Some Shionnings Schionning
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Fixed
Quote:
An outboard mounted low enough to just require power tilt to clear the water will spend a lot of time underwater when hanging to a parra anchor or drouge drogue (fixed)in the nasty blue water stuff.
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You dont hang to a drogue, you keep sailing with it. As for your contention re para anchors, No - you are wrong, at least in my experience and that of a number of associates who have actually done it.
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