Organizing the Cats by Performance

[craig boorman]

You also left out Voyage. Faster that a lagoon from my expierence. But I did loose to a Catana 47 and a new Privelege 50.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by sabray

you left out corsair and dragonfly

They would be positioned at the top but this thread is about cats, not tri's. A tri buyer values sailing performance more than comfort at anchor and living space. It's a different segment of the market. When it comes to feel and performance, nothing sails better than a tri.

All boats involve compromise between performance, space/weight, comfort systems, and price. I think Sandy hit that point pretty well in post#11.

You can sail circles around most of the cats in your tri, and have a lot more fun underway. They'll start the engine much sooner than you will in light air but at the end of the day they'll be more comfortable than you motoring through calms and sitting in the anchorage.

I've done some chartering and the cats I've chartered sailed like dogs, but were very nice boats -- fine for their intended purpose. I've been spoiled by sailing a tri and don't have the budget for the kind of performance cruising cat that would satisfy. It would be tough to go back to a mono also.

[tuskie]

1. High levels of sailing performance
2. Live aboard comfort
3. low cost of construction/ cheap purchase price

Pick any two, cos you can't have all three!
Most cruisers go for 2 and 3.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by paulrack

Muskoka the one thing you have to be careful of is taking the stats from the manufacturer. A large number of their quoted weights are way different to the actual weight of the boat (on the wrong side!).

True. But real information is pretty hard to obtain-so you're kind of stuck with manufacturers claims. So that's why I suggest the sail/weight ratio is only a point of departure when looking at performance.

I'd say in broad terms that a boat with a sail/weight ratio of 15 will definitely perform better than one with 10. However, I wouldn't be so quick to assume one with 13 will be better than one with 11 or 12 given all other factors involved in performance.

Originally Posted by paulrack

For me what would be interesting is to see actual weights from owners who have weighed their boats and then see a comparison. It is also impacted, especially in lighter winds if you can fly a screecher, not all cats can fly one on a bowsprit due to the design of the front crossbeam.

Sailplan is a very important consideration. I know my boat performs better when flying headsails off the bowsprit rather than with the stock furling headsail. Other critical factors include: beam, hull shape, wetted surface, drag, windage, daggerboards versus mini-keels and loading.

The real issue is that most boats on the list probably do what they're meant to do very well. Performance is almost always a tradeoff between Comfort and Money. You can have a modestly-priced comfortable boat, or a modestly-priced sporty boat. Of course those with deep pockets can afford a sporty/comfortable boat which is not modestly-priced (gunboat).

[paulrack]

You are absolutely right, top speed is mostly irrelevant on a cruising cat as you cannot sustain it for any length of time as it gets too uncomfortable and tiring. The boat being able to sail in a lighter wind is probably more important as you can go further without having to use the motor.

[AllezCat]

Fastest group In no particular order(cause I don't know)
schioning waterline/g-force
Outremer
Chris White Atlantic

fast and opulent
catana
Atlantic

if they don't have dagger boards the often aren't sailboats, so not really fast...

[Factor]

Ditto on the daggers - yes they are good, yes they will help a cat sail better, but to suggest that cat without daggers cant perform is erroneous. Oh - catana isnt in the fast category anymore.

[BluegillBoy]

And no mention of the EndeavourCat TC36? At 14knots it's pretty impressive. Oh, wait, that's with both diesels going. mus be in the wrong forum.

Seriously, though, if you're going to put a tall stick up above you, my favorite has always been the Fontaine Pajot - not just for performance but a wonderful balance of livability, great design and performance.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by AllezCat

if they don't have dagger boards the often aren't sailboats, so not really fast...

A catamaran with sails not a sailboat? An expert opinion? Which boat do you own?

[AllezCat]

The premise of the op is which boat is fastest.
We are talking about sailing, yes?
So, if a boat cannot sail on a point of wind when other's can due to having dagger-boards. Then the boats that need to motor, are not really sailing are they?
i doubt many people would have several thousand ocean miles on more than a couple of cats listed(except for delivery skippers), to cast an opinion based on real ocean experience. This is like fantasy football - pure theory for most people whether they have been on any catamaran, or owned a catamaran, or not.
Sorry you cannot grasp that concept.
I'm also sorry that you are offended by my opinion of the ops request of listing the fastest boats.
For the record I owned a St Francis 44 - and sailed over 30,000 miles - would like dagger boards on my next catamaran.
Please, provide some useful information, instead of the judgments.

[Factor]

No actually the premise of the OP is which RANGE of boats is the fastest, which is in and of itself a (with all due respect) a flawed concept. I dont buy a range of boats - I buy a single boat. Boats with mini keels can sail to windward, what can I say - I've done many many delivery trips on many many cats and tris,

from a pure sailing perspective a long long tri will crap on anything ales on the water, a well designed cat with boards will be better than a cat without, BUT having boards is no guarantee of success.

[AllezCat]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Yesterday I sat (reverently) on a Chris White 57 from Alwoplast at the boat show in Annapolis. I now understand that it takes 2 million dollars to have luxurious surroundings, ne plus ultra construction, and performance.

They might build three or four of these this year.

My point (lost in the preceding torrent of negativity and elitist snobbery) is this: There isn't 10% difference between the highest and lowest performance of the absolutely largest part of the catamaran market no matter how you define the idea. The skipper's ability to lighten ship makes a far greater difference.

And if you think real performance can come from minikeels you are lucky; any number of cats will satify you.

These are good points. totally agree.
I also visited the Atlantic 57 on the weekend. loved it. have my lottery ticket for tonight!!!

[AllezCat]

Originally Posted by Factor

No actually the premise of the OP is which RANGE of boats is the fastest, which is in and of itself a (with all due respect) a flawed concept. I dont buy a range of boats - I buy a single boat. Boats with mini keels can sail to windward, what can I say - I've done many many delivery trips on many many cats and tris,

from a pure sailing perspective a long long tri will crap on anything ales on the water, a well designed cat with boards will be better than a cat without, BUT having boards is no guarantee of success.

ok,
he did require them to be large French production cats.
But, I quote Sandy Daugherty, you are lucky.

[smj]

Not all cats with daggerboards have good performance and not all cats with mini keels are dogs under sail. Need to do a little more research.

[AllezCat]

Originally Posted by smj

Not all cats with daggerboards have good performance and not all cats with mini keels are dogs under sail. Need to do a little more research.

Did I say that?
please don't misquote me.
I mention high-end boats with dagger boards. Please enlighten me with your research to the contrary.
Without dagger-boards some boats are unable to sail at certain points, others with daggerboards can.
Would this be faster?
or does using engines count?
Again, I believe speed for a cruising catamaran is the main premise of the topic.

Downwind mini keels may be faster???
But, my research shows they are slower.
Catana - Catana 42 - Design and Safety
"...When sailing downwind, fixed keels are like having permanent brakes on your boat, due to their friction and drag. .."

perhaps you can provide research to the contrary...

With my lottery wining I would be deciding between Atlantic 57, Catana 582, Schionning G17.
Most likely the catana - trading speed for more opulence.