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Old 18-10-2012, 12:41   #16
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Re: Oracle accident

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Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
You would NOT be the only one with that opinion. The issue of unsuitability of the chosen vessel for the venue has been an interesting topic around here for a while. the crash of the big boat seemed kinda pre-ordained.

When you look at the boats that have been designed for the bay they are the antithesis of the 72's.

When I was learning to sail in Panama and talking to a friend who was about as salty as they get, he asked how much experience I had sailing the bay.

My bay sailing in college had been on an 18' sail/trailer, on nice days.

He just chuckled and told me when I got back to the Bap Area I would have a lifetime of learning and that The San Francisco Bay offers some of the most challenging sailing in the world within sight of land.

When 20 knots and a light bay breeze bury your bow, flip you and tear you to pieces... to the tune of 7mil...

well, as cool as it has been watching the 45's, maybe the 72's are not such a good idea. We saw the second 72 coming out of the stable yesterday when we were on the way to the marina and wondered if her fate would eventually be the same as her sister ship's.

These craft are such attenuated, delicate things. Like odd insects that live only in vary small eco-niches....
Do you have a clue how they are going to accomodate a spectator fleet, or is their going to be one? This kind of racing is designed for on shore spectators, so will there even be a spectator fleet? I was mulling over coming to SF in the early summer next year and staying through the race.
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Old 18-10-2012, 12:58   #17
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Re: Oracle accident

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Do you have a clue how they are going to accomodate a spectator fleet, or is their going to be one? This kind of racing is designed for on shore spectators, so will there even be a spectator fleet? I was mulling over coming to SF in the early summer next year and staying through the race.
During the AC World Series I served as a stake boat once and was part of the spectator fleet several times, both on my boat and others. While it wasn't all that difficult to see the races, it was better watching them on TV than live. On the day that Couts rammed the start boat, the first thing we did when we got home was pull it up on the internet to see what really happened, because we hadn't been able to see it from the water.

On the day of the match racing finals, we were in the stake boat right at the finish line, but there were numerous yachts anchored no more that 50' behind us. I discovered that the finish line wasn't a great place to watch the race, and the following day anchored close to the weather mark. We were right there when Spithill pitchpoled his boat, and that was REALLY something to watch live.

I suspect they're going to run longer courses for the 72s because of how fast those boats go. We've seen a few practice runs on the open bay, and it's quite a spectacle. It comes as no surprise, however, that it only took nine days for Oracle's 72 to destroy itself. These are NOT bluewater vessels.
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Old 18-10-2012, 13:10   #18
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Re: Oracle accident

This sort of sailing is a Do-game, not a spectator game. A bit like polo. Things happen too far away from the audience.

Well the people com to view the Nascar for the crashes. If America' s cup goes that way, let it be.
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Old 18-10-2012, 14:59   #19
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Re: Oracle accident

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Good news, like any cat worth it's salt, it didn't sink..
Huh. I kind of remember one rather conventional AC monohull that broke in half and sunk in in a minute. Very short memories.

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Old 18-10-2012, 15:19   #20
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Re: Oracle accident

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I'm curious. Is team Oracle a US entry? Or an Australian entry? Why does everyone have an Australian accent?
I think you'll find most of those "Australians" are kiwis.

The easiest way to win the cup is to buy the last people who won it. Worked for the Swiss, worked for the US.

As for racing on the edge: I don't see why the "Little America's Cup" (which was already a multihull, development format) couldn't simply have been upgraded and upsized to provide the thrills and spills which TV audiences have been trained to expect, leaving the AC as a more nuanced contest, a test of management and sailing ability as much as design, and with multilayered sailing tactics rewarding reflection, as well as spontaneity -- such as the ability to keep surprising the opposition with never-seen manoeuvres and responses. The last AC which was held in monohulls was one of the most gripping spectactles I've experienced, and (sadly) now expect to.

That move where Brad talked Ed through a dial-down approaching the top mark in the finals-- the Art of War by other means, aggression bound around with restraint, poetry in motion and boathandling, ....

I find it hard to summon up much enthusiasm for a drag race, in a contest between design offices, where the primary attributes of the sailors are heavily biased towards instantaneity: lightning reflexes, navigation based on head-up displays. "My designers/IT guys can beat up your designers/IT guys"

Then, for the losers, it morphs into "My lawyers can beat up your lawyers"

I can feel my interest waning with every successive crash. It's not as though Oracle were trying to do anything tricky at the time. They were simply bearing away.

"Next thrill, please"
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Old 18-10-2012, 16:26   #21
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Re: Oracle accident

It is a good thing for the sport of yacht racing that the public will be able to view and to understand what is happening on television. For most people, ACR's and 12 meters are boring as hell if you do not understand what is happening. Ellison is trying to shed the image of the snotty yachtie, justly or unjustly perceived by much of the public. I say turn the Americas Cup into the nautical equivalent of NASCAR. I see no harm in making yacht racing interesting to everyone.

My only gripe is that the crews can be citizens of any country, which does not make it a true nation against nation competition like I think it should be if they are going to be labeling the boats as representing a specific country. There might as well be a big UN flag on all the sails.
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Old 18-10-2012, 16:45   #22
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Re: Oracle accident

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It is a good thing for the sport of yacht racing that the public will be able to view and to understand what is happening on television. For most people, ACR's and 12 meters are boring as hell if you do not understand what is happening.
This may be true, but I hated to see how much they'd dumbed down the commentary. It seemed that the commentators had been instructed not to use terms such as "slam dunk" or "lee bow" to describe racing maneuvers. Similarly, I couldn't believe that the start and finish lines were marked with checkered flags rather than the traditional orange flags that mark a line in yacht racing. A friend who was working as a course marshall said that this change was at the insistance of the TV people.

It's not a race without a checkered flag, right?
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Old 18-10-2012, 17:04   #23
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Re: Oracle accident

These are the big boys in the prelims they were racing the babies.
I love it on TV they have live cameras all over the boats and with good colour commentary they will grab and hold the biggest audience they have ever had for sailing.
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Old 18-10-2012, 17:08   #24
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Re: Oracle accident

The problems with the AC 45s are carrying through to the bigger America's Cup Boats. These boats are going to continue to pitchpole. The winged masts are so powerful and the boats lacking in forward buoyancy that pitchpoling is inevitable when they stuff a hull into a wave. Hopefully they will limit boat traffic during the racing to cut down on boat generated waves. Afternoon winds are almost constantly 25k plus in front of the city which will surely be a leg of the race course.

Latitude 38 an interesting option for a safer but still very fast boat to campaign the cup in.: Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude If that Tri was adopted it would put the campaign into boat to boat campaign rather than a designer to designer campaign.

There is supposedly a large jumbotron that is scheduled to be moored on the water front. Supposedly The software, etc is already in place to use it to explain the intricacies of sailboat racing and do replays for the publics edification. The only reason it hasn't been put in place is some idiot group is claiming it will disturb a duck or something. Believe the city is going to spend close to six figures to do a study that the temporary placement of this screen won't irreperably harm SF Bay.

There will be a spectator fleet for the races. CG and race officials are working on a plan where to put and police it. Could be very interesting as people have been advertising boats for sale so people can go out and watch the races. During Fleet Week, some people always sail through the anchored spectator fleet for the Blue Angels. The whole Bay is so shallow, you can anchor almost anywhere so water depth isn't a limiting factor. The Oil tankers and Container ships that come through on the way to Richmond and Oakland are not just occasional obstacles. Ship traffic is very heavy. Assume they will work out some kind of holding pattern for these monsters during the actual racing.
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Old 18-10-2012, 18:01   #25
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Re: Oracle accident

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The Oil tankers and Container ships that come through on the way to Richmond and Oakland are not just occasional obstacles. Ship traffic is very heavy. Assume they will work out some kind of holding pattern for these monsters during the actual racing.
According to the original plan, the challenger selection series was supposed to take place over a two-month period. This will undoubtedly be shortened by the fact that only four syndicates will be able to afford to build the 72s.

Of course, if the average life expectancy of a 72 turns out of be nine sailing days.....
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Old 18-10-2012, 18:27   #26
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Re: Oracle accident

If you want to live in a world shaped by the sensibilities of TV advertisers, you've come to the right planet.

If you think it's bad now, hang around. (sure it won't be TV, but whatever media replace it: as long as it's either free or subsidised, the public can't expect to call the shots.)

Eventually, the way things are going, exactly NOTHING will be for our benefit.
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Old 18-10-2012, 18:39   #27
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Re: Oracle accident

Pretty decadent really but love the tech. & the "devil take hindermost attitude"!
I think RC's driven it a step too far this time not that he is the prime mover.
Wonder what Larry said when his boys broke the toy?
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Old 18-10-2012, 22:59   #28
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Re: Oracle accident

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I think you'll find most of those "Australians" are kiwis."
James Spithill, the skipper, is most certainly Australian, as is Tom Slingsby - tactician. There are also Germans and Dutch on the crew. In fact I think they may have one or two Americans.
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Old 18-10-2012, 23:55   #29
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pirate Re: Oracle accident

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I'm curious. Is team Oracle a US entry? Or an Australian entry? Why does everyone have an Australian accent?
Pulled into Cascais on a delivery with the owner last year while they were running the heats... exciting stuff and those boats really flew...
The teams however were primarily Aussie's and Kiwi's... a sprinkling of American skippers... seems our antipodean cousins are the only one's with big enough balls and the required skill, muscle and speed to drive these things...
They're great fun to party with as well....
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Old 19-10-2012, 00:01   #30
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Re: Oracle accident

There's an interesting period starting at 1m30 in this clip
La webcam de Christian kiki Karcher / Les AC72 de l'America's Cup - YouTube
which shows the kiwi boat burying the lee bow and getting away with it, followed by a shot of the Oracle boat from a similar angle, showing how much more sophisticated but skinny the lines are, particularly forrard.
The commentator is talking up the kiwi effort and expressing concerns about aspects of the Oracle design and execution, but I doubt that counts for anything - who would know, at this stage. Still, on top of the setback with foil design, this latest breakup is going to put their feet to the fire.
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