Opinions please on cat purchase

[daletournier]

You know the speed doesn't always make a difference and a shorter time wise passage isnt always a better passage. I recently did 180nm passage in company with a friend who was his 45 foot Schoining cat. It was windy and swelly. Im sailing between 8-9 knots on 34foot monohull and the was it was faster than I was comfortable with, speeding through a moonless night with the sound of a rushing water as I'm trying to sleep knowing there is whales and debri in these waters dosent lent it self to a pleasurable trip.
Now my friends cat is much faster than my boat, but in reality he doesn't always get there much before I do because he is also trying to slow the boat down as 10 knots+ racing through the night is even more unnerving than 8 knots. He has said to me on a number of occasions that going to fast over long distances gets on his nerves abit. Btw I love his boat, this is not a mono vs cat post.

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[REsCat]

Originally Posted by Factor

Quite funny that the two who seem to disagree with my observations are defensive of the boat they own, thats fair enough - you would be an idiot to buy a boat and not like it, but if anyone has bias then it will be an owner. Not a retired chappie with no horse in the race.

Quite funny that the two forum members he is referring to, that actually own Catanas (and know something about their build,history and strengths and weakness) are not the least bit defensive of the boats they own because they don't have to defend their boats... the vintage,ownership feedback, critical reviews,performance,resale,common multihull opinions, miles sailed etc etc speak for themselves.
We just take issue with "retired chappie"s who make blanket statements as fact and are asked to elaborate on these dumb blanket statements.

Bob

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by smj

Catana had some good years but they also went through a time where the quality really suffered. I'm sure this is true of the majority of production boats.

Which years were those when quality suffered and by what measure by whom?

Quite funny that the two who seem to disagree with my observations are defensive of the boat they own, thats fair enough

Speaking for myself I wouldn't say it's defensive, just perplexing and I'd like to understand what I'm missing. We may have quite different definitions of what "quality of build" means and possibly have had different opportunities to assess such "quality". But until one establishes what sort of quality they're speaking of, it's pointless to throw around such broad, subjective terms.

A crude proxy for quality would reasonably include retention of value. Objectively browsing brokerage listings should lead one to conclude that some builders' boats retain their resale value better than others, perhaps due to some "quality" attribute, among other reasons. Smart prospective buyers of used boats will do this as well as seek opinions of others. Those opinions should be backed by supporting evidence, not just saying so.

Dave

[smj]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Which years were those when quality suffered and by what measure by whom?







Speaking for myself I wouldn't say it's defensive, just perplexing and I'd like to understand what I'm missing. We may have quite different definitions of what "quality of build" means and possibly have had different opportunities to assess such "quality". But until one establishes what sort of quality they're speaking of, it's pointless to throw around such broad, subjective terms.



A crude proxy for quality would reasonably include retention of value. Objectively browsing brokerage listings should lead one to conclude that some builders' boats retain their resale value better than others, perhaps due to some "quality" attribute, among other reasons. Smart prospective buyers of used boats will do this as well as seek opinions of others. Those opinions should be backed by supporting evidence, not just saying so.



Dave

Can't recall the exact years but if I recall correctly it would be late 90's early 2000's. Problems with extensive delam and failed tabbing on the structural bulkheads. I saw some of the problems, and the boatbuilder I was working for worked on some with the problems. Doesn't mean that all had problems or the product they are putting out now isn't a quality product. I really like the older true Crowther designed Catanas and think the current design is way better than the standard charter cat design.


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[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by smj

Can't recall the exact years but if I recall correctly it would be late 90's early 2000's. Problems with extensive delam and failed tabbing on the structural bulkheads.

So you don't really know and you're just carelessly flinging out hearsay. Even if this was true, must have been a few lemons. My boat is a 2001 and nothing like that exists. "Tabbing" is not used if we're using the same nomenclature - all 21 transverse bulkheads are bonded-in along the entire length of the intersections with full fairing and carbon reinforcing on both sides. Zero delamination.

The point here is that accusations of bad whatever should be challenged for evidence no matter what the boat or who the builder. It does nobody any good to spread unsubstantiated stories.

Dave

[travellerw]

Hopefully I can throw this piece of advice in before this thread goes to hell and the OP abandons it.

We were exactly where you are about a year and a half ago. First, you are looking at some pretty big boats for just 2 people. Our family of 5 will be on a 40 cat. You can save quite a bit of money looking at a little smaller, like 36-38. That size boat will have no problem in the areas you want to sail Everyones path is different though, and you may NEED 40-44ft. I suggest you spend a couple of weeks on a cat before deciding.

Second.. Make a short list of manufacturers but don't close the door to others. You never know when a deal will fall in your lap. I've heard of people not even looking at boats cause they aren't on their list (yet they fit all their other criteria). I had never even heard of my boat until it came up on one of my searches. In the end I'm sure glad I didn't overlook it.

[smj]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

So you don't really know and you're just carelessly flinging out hearsay. Even if this was true, must have been a few lemons. My boat is a 2001 and nothing like that exists. "Tabbing" is not used if we're using the same nomenclature - all 21 transverse bulkheads are bonded-in along the entire length of the intersections with full fairing and carbon reinforcing on both sides. Zero delamination.



The point here is that accusations of bad whatever should be challenged for evidence no matter what the boat or who the builder. It does nobody any good to spread unsubstantiated stories.



Dave

Reread my post Dave, I saw some of the problems, not just hearsay.


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[hblask]

Originally Posted by travellerw

We were exactly where you are about a year and a half ago. First, you are looking at some pretty big boats for just 2 people. Our family of 5 will be on a 40 cat. You can save quite a bit of money looking at a little smaller, like 36-38. That size boat will have no problem in the areas you want to sail Everyones path is different though, and you may NEED 40-44ft. I suggest you spend a couple of weeks on a cat before deciding.

There will be four of us for sure, with an occasional (we hope) 5th. Our 10 and 11 year old (11 and 12 by then) will be along, and my 20 y/o wants to come along at some point, but is full of youth and fun in college, so it may not work out.

We just spent a week on a Lipari 41, and it was definitely big enough for our needs -- but that was a 2014, which we can't afford. But it felt way bigger than the FP 43 we were on a couple years ago, so I'm not closing the door to a well-designed smaller boat.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by hblask

SNIP

Our plan is to cruise full time, probably in the Caribbean, maybe South America, and Mexico, possibly going up the east coast of the US in the summer (or maybe put it on land for hurricane season and visit friends and family -- we really don't care where we go, just to have an adventure).

WARNING MY STANDARD RANT

One of the biggest mistakes a lot of folks make is buying a boat suited for what they think they will be doing as opposed to what they actually do.

I bought a catamaran I would be single handing doing coastal cruising in Florida, the Florida Keys, and the Bahamas. All of this is basically day sailing and you don't need to sail after dark if you don't want to. I wanted the boat to be open and airy, have a nice refrigerator capable of making ice for my Coke, and room for my dive and photography gear. While this could be upgraded if necessary I was happy the boat I bought had good ground tackle; a Manson with chain on an electric windless and a Bruce as a secondary, both well placed at the bow and easy to use.

Even if you were doing things like sailing down the coast of South America I bet you could do it without a six day passage unless your plans include the high latitudes. Even a lot of the Caribbean is maybe an over night sail if you plan things. I have no illusions about me sailing around the three great capes, or even crossing oceans. Things like this are very personal decisions, and unless you have been on multiple day passages something that you may need more experience to make.

The point being some things like ground tackle is a must no matter what boat you get while having ice making capability is something you may be able to live without. Same goes for ability to sail for days at a time.

But the bottom line for me is something my brother told me a while back, remember this whole thing is suppose to be fun. Would you be having more fun sailing, diving, fishing, or simply sunning in easy to get to anchorages in the Bahamas; or do you really want to head South through the Thorny Patch and sail to places where navigation and anchoring is harder, repairs and parts may be harder, and folks in many of the countries don't speak the kings good English.

Not trying to say there are better or worse choices, just different ones. You are the one to make those choices; but remember my brother's advice; it is suppose to be fun.

[Oliver L.]

Hello,

you might have gotten all the answers by now from the specialists, but I still want to weigh in.

Observation: cats in the last 5 years seem to have a much better design, so that the "feels like" of a 38' or 40' boat is equivalent to a 43-45' boat from 15 years ago, and the new ones have better cockpit layouts. True or false?

False - if you want to head for the open seas, like we did. Most manufacturers try to cram 45 feet into a 40 foot boat today. What that leads to is fat hulls and next to no hull length behind the cockpit. But when you're out there and the waves are piling up, you want that length back there, because that's what lifts your hulls before the wave gets to the bridgedeck or the dinghy. We've never had a wave enter the cockpit or flood the dinghy - but then I consider our boat still a true sailing cat.

Then look at the crazy idea of an "open cockpit". If you want to cruise the Bahamas, that may be fine - but consider that every way that you can walk from the salon to the water's edge the waves can walk in reverse. I know it's a bit more complicated to climb over the edge of our cockpit, but that is true for the waves, too.

I won't comment on flybridge or not - even Lagoon has finally seen the light and is offering the normal steering position again on newer models.

Rumor: Lagoon, FP, and Leopard are all fine boats, but Catana is that next step up in quality of build. True or false?

Catanas are nice, fast, complicated. I chartered quite a few (431, 471, 50) before buying our boat, and I heard some tales from the charter companies as to how complicated it is to unravel lines which get snagged in the tunnel. No first hand experience, so I'll leave it at that. But on the 50 I had tremendous noise from the centerboards - the charter company had told us to raise them completely above 8 knots, and we found out why - they had too much play and banged around to scare me shitless.

I do firmly believe that the speed difference is not a big deal. Yes, I love running at 10+ knots for a day, but come night I put in another reef or drop the main altogether because I, too, don't sleep comfortably scooting through the dark at 10 knots. And I find that one more day of a long passage matters less to me than a few bad nights in a row where I could not sleep.

If you are a beginner, look at seaworthiness first. Our first ocean passage the boat did basically by itself. Since then we have learned and we know the limitations and possibilities of our boat much better - but it was a process over 20,000 miles (so far).

Happy hunting...

Oliver

[monte]

It's true that designers have been fitting a lot of accommodation and amenities in shorter cats over the recent years. Although that's has been since the 80s with prout and heavenly twin type designs which of course have circumnavigated extensively, including trips around cape Horne. Modern cats range between that design philosophy, and open bridgedeck (big hobie cat) philosophies. I don't think there's any inherent flaws in any of the designs you mentioned, but some did have particularly poor periods with some designs, such as FP osmosis. You would want to look into it more carefully if you settle on a design from that period. I've never met a catana owner that had complaints about quality or inherent flaws, but there's always someone that isn't cut out for General maintainance/repairs, and thinks boats should be perfect without any owner input. Stuff happens to all brands and models.
Personally I think the older a boat gets, the more maintainance, time and costs are involved. Not to say there's none on newer boats, but there's definitely less. From recent experience, $250K will get you into a 2-3yr old well equipped (solar, WM etc) ready to cruise L380 owners version. Another 20-30K will get a similar L400. Take around $10K/year off for older models. Most cats around 38' will be well suited to your cruising plans.
Regarding speed, it's relative. If you have a cat that ps top speed is 5kn, you get excited when you are doing that and it's great sailing. The same goes for a cat with top speed of 10 or 15kn. You will spend more time at sea on longer passages if you average 6kn instead of 10kn, but some of us actually prefer more time at sea Speed is just a number on the instruments. If you decide to go for an older cat, some good options are to buy in the Caribbean, in euros, from private owners such as these.
http://www.leboncoin.fr/nautisme/off...14&q=Catamaran
I'd say a privilege 42 for €120K would be worth a look...

[Tom and Maje]

You have about the same budget we had last year. Contact Jeff Jones at the Miultihull company in Ft Lauderde and tell him I told you to call him. There is no one who knowsi more about cats. PM me if you want his phone number or more info. He saved me $10,000 on our boat purchase and a bunch more on stuff for the boat.

Maje

[reed1v]

If your a newbie to cats, be sure to really study up on how to sail them. Safe in the right hands, deadly in the wrong hands.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Fitting more "stuff" into the same length isn't necessarily better....

If you want said stuff it is very obviously better. Just saying that some of the people want this so called stuff.

[hblask]

Originally Posted by reed1v

If your a newbie to cats, be sure to really study up on how to sail them. Safe in the right hands, deadly in the wrong hands.

Absolutely! I am all about safety, since we have two kids. I just finished a week long class/charter with a captain (ASA 114). By the end he basically told us "stop learning, now go get some experience".