One off vs production (used)

[Thumbs Up]

Semantics...
Here is an article about the meaning of the term "one off": https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/m...anguage-t.html
They are saying that it means "unique" but is not a bastardization of "one of a kind" although that is what it means. I think that in boat building it means that it is not designed to be mass produced or maybe built from a mold that was designed to be discarded after one use. The word "custom" is either short for "customized" which could mean built from an established design that was modified for whatever reason, but could also mean a production model that was modified in some way as to be very unique or is short for the term "custom built" which means that a manufacturer was hired to build a specific item. But Semi-custom, I think, means that it was manufactured the same as the others but ordered with non-standard features or to be completed by the purchaser. Regardless of the actual meaning of these words, they all have their own connotations. I think that the terms "one off" and "custom" generally have positive connotations and are used to avoid terms like "experimental", "hot rod", "amateur built", "owner built", and so on.

In the case of boats that were built from a published design or even a kit it is hard to find a term to fit. My catamaran was either built from a published plan or copied from one that was. The designers name was John Hitch. All boats that were built to his plans are called Hitchhikers although this is not a brand. Kind of like "Wharrams", or "Searunners"(which is an odd one because it could refer to a cat or a tri). In my ad I chose to call mine a "Custom Hitchhiker" for two reasons: If you've never heard of it, it explains why (because it is custom) and if you already know what a Hitchhiker is, it explains why it doesn't look like the others.

The intent of the O.P. was to provoke a discussion about PRODUCTION CATAMARANS VS NON PRODUCTION CATAMARANS. My intent, when I replied sarcastically, was to provoke some input from the non-production boat owners because most of the catamaran posts lately have been dominated by the seemingly over funded newbies (who don't know anything about multihulls, sailing or even boating) who are only looking at shiny, heavy, newer, expensive condomarans. The fact that my sarcasm was lost to a few people is another issue. (you can google "people that don't understand sarcasm"). The fact that this discussion also includes non production monohulls and maybe even trimarans is good too but we happen to know from his other posts that the O.P. is specifically considering catamarans.

PRODUCTION CATAMARANS VS NON PRODUCTION CATAMARANS:
This is an interesting topic because there are not very many mass produced performance catamarans but I will let someone else expound on that topic.

A good boat design has to be a balance (compromise) between several factors. They are: Comfort, performance, safety, and cost (those are the classic examples). Then there is reliability (durability), "curb appeal" (wow factor), resale-ability (not sure if that is a word), insure-ability, and affordability (different than cost because it refers to maintenance and storage costs). Contemplating the purchase of a used non-production boat is even more complicated. You have to look at variable build quality, overall condition, modification of the design by the builder, location and actual performance. You can not rely on the experiences of other owners like you can with production boats. There are no comparisons. The O.P., as he stated in another thread is looking for around a 40' catamaran for under 100k. I have one (for sale) and it is perfectly functional but like any other boat is a compromise. My boat is more of a condo-maran but is capable of good performance (for a condo) because of it's low weight compared to all of the similar sized production models. Sure, you can buy a better boat (for more money), you might even find one for less but the trick is to find one who's particular set of compromises suits you.

[Suijin]

I’m reminded of the saga of the Flyin’ Hawaiian. The one off to end all one offs. [emoji51]

[Thumbs Up]

I’m reminded of the saga of the Flyin’ Hawaiian. The one off to end all one offs.

That is because I mentioned "Hot Rod"!

[Toccata]

From a Newbie
Ooops I did'nt realise I was chatting on a multihull forum, sorry. Comments probably still apply???
To answer Riki, you can't beat good design, and you can rarely fixup bad design. Really deep pockets might help.
Overnight I thought of another reason to enjoy a custom/one off. The owner user/custodian is not constrained by the form or conventional pathway of a production boat when considering modifications. Generally no lining and minimal furniture molds so one can free form alterations. There would also be minimal market impact altering a one off, where alterations of a name brand boat could have significant market consequences.

[Teleman]

Production boat priorities are appearance, accommodation, and cost-effective materials and production methods.

Good one-offs can be far better boats, assuming a good design and skilled experienced builder.

If you are not an expert, always get a good surveyor to look over any boat you're interested in buying.

[catsketcher]

Personally I would not want a production cat.

The only ones I could afford do not sail anywhere near as well as the boat I made. They have more trim, interior moldings and furnishings that I don't require or desire. They weigh more. Most don't have daggerboards, kick up rudders, or twin outboards. Their hulls are fatter. They often have heavily immersed transoms. Many smell of polyester resin inside the compartments, and could be susceptible to osmosis.

But really I wanted to build a boat that suited me. So mine has a wishbone boom, a three stay a side rig, staysail, cabin that allows forward vision inside, and safety from nice flat decks. She has been a great home for over 4 years liveaboard cruising.

And man does she sail, after 18 years I still love the way she sails. My boat still gets into the groove and we talk together and she slides, under reacher, down waves and up the next, on autopilot. Or with her deep boards, low windage and nice rudders she trucks to windward really solidly when almost every other boat in sight is motoring or motorsailing. They complain about the rough trip and we keep quiet about how our boat didn't work against the wind, but worked with it instead. About 8 day trips along the coast have been standouts - 10 knot averages on the chart for all day - once 160 miles in 16 hours. That means you get a heap done in daylight if you leave in summer just at false dawn. Crossing Bass Strait and sliding along at 14 knots for four hours - really getting the miles done in a boat that seems to enjoy it as much as you do. My home, my refuge for sanity, my dream maker, having fun with me.

Sure I could try to buy an Outremer, but I liked building mine and it produced a boat that fits me like a glove. I always wanted to build a boat and have never ever wanted a production boat because mine was designed and built to really SAIL and building was the only way I could afford it.

So if you are a cruiser who loves sailing to windward and gets a thrill from setting a kite or reacher a Pescott, Grainger, or Schionning etc could the be the thing. This forum is heavily biased to US idea of production but here in Oz we have a great history of producing fabulous custom multis. It used to be the only way to get a good multi.

And interestingly, like Jim, I have had three friends all ask if I wanted to sell her. Those who know her, like her and that suits me fine.

[riki]

As usual a lot of good input by all members, thank you very much for your time. There is always room to learn more and more, and this discussion did open for some more options on the market.
My final idea is that if the right one off is found, it might be a great opportunity for someone who's intention is not to get just a sabbatical year sailing around and with the idea to sell the boat right away.

A related question inmy head that i mentioned in another post is: is the name behind the project an important point or do you think that the main thing is how the boat has been built? Because there are many nice boats designed by very reputable designers, but way more boats designed by unknown (or just not as famous) designers that might be as good as the others......opinions on this one?
Cheers

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by riki

As usual a lot of good input by all members, thank you very much for your time. There is always room to learn more and more, and this discussion did open for some more options on the market.
My final idea is that if the right one off is found, it might be a great opportunity for someone who's intention is not to get just a sabbatical year sailing around and with the idea to sell the boat right away.

A related question inmy head that i mentioned in another post is: is the name behind the project an important point or do you think that the main thing is how the boat has been built? Because there are many nice boats designed by very reputable designers, but way more boats designed by unknown (or just not as famous) designers that might be as good as the others......opinions on this one?
Cheers

Some builders used reputable designers but built shoddy boats. The design is "bought" by the builder, the designer gets a fee on each boat built. But he may not be contracted to go any further than that. Or he may be contracted to make sure build is proper.
The boats designed by "unknowns" may be great, or they may be a problem! I once bought a boat by a local designer (more of a knowledgeable builder really) who taught marine construction at a local community college. It was a bit of a radical design now that I know about boats. The boat sailed terribly. It had hull shape issues that moving the sail plan etc couldn't surmount. If you buy a boat designed by say... Sparkman and Stevens you are very unlikely to get that problem...

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by riki

A related question inmy head that i mentioned in another post is: is the name behind the project an important point or do you think that the main thing is how the boat has been built? Because there are many nice boats designed by very reputable designers, but way more boats designed by unknown (or just not as famous) designers that might be as good as the others......opinions on this one?
Cheers

A known designer is key. A builder whether amateur or professional can buy the plans and then at least have the scantlings and all the other details to build a proper boat. Buying a boat from an unknown designer may have issues down the road at resell.


Just like in houses one should remember that you are not buying the boat for yourself, you are buying the boat for the person that you are going to sell it to.

[riki]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

A known designer is key. A builder whether amateur or professional can buy the plans and then at least have the scantlings and all the other details to build a proper boat. Buying a boat from an unknown designer may have issues down the road at resell.


Just like in houses one should remember that you are not buying the boat for yourself, you are buying the boat for the person that you are going to sell it to.

I understand what you mean, but i find it...."not fair".....it's like these guys that use this ugly seat covers in their cars to preserve them so buyer will get them new, mean while they didn't enjoy completelly what they bought thinking about resale. Don't know if i explained myself properly

Some time ago i was asking about this: https://www.inautia.it/barca-4636007...849524548.html

Opened a thread asking info: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...is-206426.html

[riki]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The boats designed by "unknowns" may be great, or they may be a problem! I once bought a boat by a local designer (more of a knowledgeable builder really) who taught marine construction at a local community college. It was a bit of a radical design now that I know about boats. The boat sailed terribly. It had hull shape issues that moving the sail plan etc couldn't surmount. If you buy a boat designed by say... Sparkman and Stevens you are very unlikely to get that problem...

Won't this be noticed by a surveyor and sea trial?

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Just like in houses one should remember that you are not buying the boat for yourself, you are buying the boat for the person that you are going to sell it to.

This logic is sound if and only if your needs and desires match 80% of the population. It also assumes that this super-majority's collective wisdom is correct and will not lose value over time.

Mechanical things that are unique are unique because they are poorly designed, or, they offer utility that is not afforded by the "standard" version of the thing.

80% of people are either uninterested in the unique things and/or intimidated by them. Accordingly the market value can be depressed for such things. As the seasoned surveyor pointed out, if you know what you want and you know what you're doing, you can buy a lot of utility for relatively little money. This has nothing to do with resale value.

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Just like in houses one should remember that you are not buying the boat for yourself, you are buying the boat for the person that you are going to sell it to.

Well, Sand Crab, I'm going to join the chorus of those who disagree. That's not how I buy houses, cars, boats, and that's certainly not how my wife chose me. OK, maybe a lapse of judgement on the last one, but we've come out alright on everything else.


And your comment is a bit ironic coming from a guy who just sold a Crowther tri. Not really a huge market for those even though I like them.


Cheers,

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by jdazey

Well, Sand Crab, I'm going to join the chorus of those who disagree. That's not how I buy houses, cars, boats, and that's certainly not how my wife chose me. OK, maybe a lapse of judgement on the last one, but we've come out alright on everything else.


And your comment is a bit ironic coming from a guy who just sold a Crowther tri. Not really a huge market for those even though I like them.


Cheers,

+1 ...........

[Sand crab]

Everyone hates me


The point I was trying to make is that having a boat that was designed by a known professional sure helps whether you are buying or selling. JDazeys "Chris White Voyager" is a great starting point to any future sale. My old Crowther Buccaneer also has some provenance. On the other hand someones no name custom would be dismissed immediately by quite a few no matter how cool.


FWIW I took a spin in my old Buc this spring. Now I go out about once a week in my buddies MacGregor 26. It's almost a CW Voyager
Almost.