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Old 09-03-2017, 10:06   #1
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One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

Looking for a little input from the CF braintrust.

My wife and I are flying down to look at a large Cat on Saturday.

This is not a production boat, it is a custom one off built on a Malcom Tenant hull design.

The design of the boat hull and superstructure appears to be excellent and checks a lot of the boxes I desire.

My biggest concern is how to accurately arrive at a realistic current value and more importantly a RESALE value for the future. How hard is it going to be to sell? He has been trying to sell it for years, though He was WAY out of the ballpark originally ($1 Million) and lowered his price to $699 recently. But because of the one off, and the age I think it is still to high and should be reduced by 1/3 more.

The owner started construction in 2003 and the diesel engines are 2004 installed during build. He calls it a 2013, but He briefly splashed it in 2008/9 with the engines installed, but without the interior for a trial float.

My guess is that he would have run the engines at that time as I know I could not have resisted after building for 4-5 years.

Overall, it was a 9 year build. I know he is going to replace the Generator and the engines have about 1600 hrs on them. They are Cummins QSB5.9 300 HP.

Hear Ye! Hear Ye! The court is now in session!
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:06   #2
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

1. You have posted this in the MH sailing forum, so you might not get the expertise you need for a power yacht.
2. I don't think you have given a good enough overview of the boat to form an educated opinion about worth or resale beyond a generalization for a one off. For instance, what construction materials and methods were used, dimensions, equipment, price competativeness in the catagory, etc...

I suspect that it is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it, and as it has been sitting for sale for a long time, dollars to donughts that it's not "worth" nearly what he wants to get from it. One off's usually don't sell as fast, or hold their value as well as brand names, even for well known designers. This will hold true for when you come to sell it down the road. That doesn't mean it's not a good boat, but brand recognition and industry footprint have value.

Find a good surveyor who knows boats in this catagory, and have them give you an honest assessment of condition, quality and value.

Cheers.
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:30   #3
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

While many people might tell that catamarans "hold value very well", there are some differences. Lagoons and other production cats hold value quite good and can be sold within reasonable amount of time (if in reasonable shape and priced reasonably).
One-off catamarans mostly "hold" value because their owners have emotional attachments to them and do not lower the price. They keep boat on the market for years (some - for many years), waiting for "magic" (read - "stupid") buyer in hope that someone will pay over 500k for one-off fiberglass boat over 10 years old. When time comes and they can't wait any longer (age, health, etc) price can drop dramatically (recent example - 72ft catamaran was for listed at 1.6M Euro few years ago, and finally started getting offers when listed price dropped to 500K USD).
Most older one-off catamarans have awfully outdated chart plotters, electronics etc. etc., which will be expensive to replace.

So while some one-off catamarans might have few unique features and might sail better than modern condomarans, it's impossible to justify "emotional attachment markup" in most cases.
All above - about sailing catamarans, but I'm sure similar rules apply to power catamarans.
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:42   #4
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

You have gotten some good advice/comment from Red Herring and Ranchero.

I think the main point is that without seeing the CONDITION of the boat, and that means ANY boat, and knowing the BUILD or construction quality and finish and current equipment condition, asking "how much is it worth" is really not going to yield any answer that would be valid...except:

"It is worth what someone will pay for it."

That someone may be you. Or not. Apparently, from your description, the owner/seller has not found the right buyer or the right price, yet. From my perspective, whatever it was listed for before is inconsequential. Why? Because it never sold at any of the previous listing prices. So, those earlier prices are meaningless today. They only help the buyer see that the seller has not had success selling it before.

Your task is to assess the vessel, and then IF you want it, convince the seller YOU are the right buyer and you have the right offer, now.

That is how I see it. My opinion. Others here have bought and sold many boats, so their experience and views or opinions will of course differ.

Good luck on your decision.

My suggestion: Post some photos of the boat and more information about it in this thread to get more stimulating answers, more suggestions, or comments on this topic.
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:56   #5
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

A boat is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:00   #6
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
From my perspective, whatever it was listed for before is inconsequential. Why? Because it never sold at any of the previous listing prices. So, those earlier prices are meaningless today.
I've seen cases when someone actually bought one-off catamaran (listed at high price, sold price unknown), and put it back on the market in a year or two, for unknown reasons. Few years later, it's still was on the market, price dropped big time. Someone taking huge loss there. So yes, earlier prices are meaningless indeed.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:03   #7
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

All very valid, especially about the bit about info on construction method etc. Few caveats, A good custom boat is way better than a production boat, a bad custom boat, not so much. The trick is picking the difference. Over time custom boats will hold value better than production, , there are a couple of production makes who's value drops off a cliff at about 7 years.
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Old 09-03-2017, 14:06   #8
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

One thing that will affect value is whether it was built to the Tennant plans or is a owner mod on Tennant based hulls. The guy that runs the office is slow to respond but should be able to help and help make sure any changes are within the design parameters.
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Old 09-03-2017, 14:23   #9
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

The construction is listed as Vacuum bagged Corecell foam.
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Old 09-03-2017, 14:54   #10
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldon957 View Post
The construction is listed as Vacuum bagged Corecell foam.


Some good comments above.

The Malcolm Tennant CS hull form is the benchmark for fuel efficient powercats. There is uite a bit of information on Domino with a search of the web.

There is now doubt one off ownerbuilt cats generally don't hold their value as well as big production companies.

That does not preclude any one off from being the vessel if well built of good materials and surveyed by a knowledgable surveyor.
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Old 09-03-2017, 15:30   #11
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

Looks like a rugged Power Cat.

Designer: Malcolm Tennent/ Bill Shuman

2013 Bill Shuman 63 Power cat Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Someone put a lot of money into her.

If you and yours likes it and your surveyor gives her a clean bill of health.

You can probable name your price as a buyer.

Best of luck.
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Old 09-03-2017, 15:55   #12
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

Nothing wrong with that Powercat.

Genuine Tennant design. He was (now deceased) NZ not Australian.

http://dominocatamaran.blogspot.com/ )
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:27   #13
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

DOMINO 20: VOYAGING UNDER POWER

There is a book Voyaging under power 4th edition that has recently being updated to include the Tennant powercat Domino.


5 – Range – Malcolm Tennant was always very conservative with his numbers and estimates. He designed the DOMINO 20’s range with a goal of 4,000 nautical miles at 10 knots. After traveling almost 20,000 NM, we estimate that at 10 knots our true range is closer to 6,000 NM.

Here are the numbers at full load of fuel and water
RPM GPH SPEED (Kt) RANGE (NM)
1100 5.5 10.3 5,618


DOMINO under full load at the Myrtle Beach Yacht Club (Photo Philippe Dufour)
It may, to some, seem silly to have such a large range capability. However, this allows us to select our refueling points, eliminating the dubious and risky drums and old barrels. So far, we’ve never had bad fuel. With the help of Tony Athens (Seaboard Marine and Boat Diesel.com) the tanks, fuel fill-up and transfer system have been designed to avoid ingress of water and condensation. So far, we have not had a drop of water in our fuel, which allows to keep fuel for a long time without using additive (16 months from Myrtle Beach to Panama City.) Finally, is the economy due to DOMINO’s highly performing John Deere 6081 engines? Possibly. Do we always cruise at 10 knots? Most of the time, we do so because we are trolling. Sometimes, we troll at 7 knots on 1 engine only (900 rpm, 7.3nm, 1.8 gph, 12,000 NM range.) At times, and DOMINO much prefers this, we cruise at 20 knots (2,000 rpm, 23 gph, 2,200 NM range) as we did to escape Hurricane Tomas, cross the Gulf Stream, or even to please our pilot on the Panama Canal. Bottom line, in our 19,000 NM of travels we have averaged 10.5 knots, 2.5 mpg.

Again, we asked to design our DOMINO with economy in mind, in keeping with the original “Passagemaker” philosophy: a boat for 2, cruising full-time, far-far away. Modifications would be easy. Our in-hull workshop could be scrapped to build a stateroom, for example, but I’m not about to take this workshop away from JP. If the galley makes every cruising woman want to move on board DOMINO, the workshop has their male counterparts salivating in envy.

For JP and I and considering our cruising style and destinations, DOMINO is, indeed, the Ultimate Passagemaker.

Thank you, Denis Umstot and Bill Parlatore for being such strong supporters of the Powercat concept in general and of our DOMINO 20 in particular. This is an idea that has come of age. Eight of Malcolm Tennant’s powercats have crossed oceans on their own bottoms. After the success of the DOMINO 20 design, as proven by the frequent New-Zealand to Samoa crossings of our sister ship TABBY CAT, we are so excited to see that Northland Contract Boatbuilders is now offering a small series of DOMINO 20. We wish them and Anthony “Tony” Stanton all the success they deserve.

Gone cruisin’….
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:31   #14
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One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post

Do we always cruise at 10 knots? Most of the time, we do so because we are trolling.

Sometimes, we troll at 7 knots on 1 engine only (900 rpm, 7.3nm, 1.8 gph, 12,000 NM range.)

Again, we asked to design our DOMINO with economy in mind, in keeping with the original “Passagemaker” philosophy: a boat for 2, cruising full-time, far-far away. Modifications would be easy. Our in-hull workshop could be scrapped to build a stateroom, for example, but I’m not about to take this workshop away from JP. If the galley makes every cruising woman want to move on board DOMINO, the workshop has their male counterparts salivating in envy.

For JP and I and considering our cruising style and destinations, DOMINO is, indeed, the Ultimate Passagemaker.
Their are plenty of thinks to LIKE about this Power Cat design.
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Old 10-03-2017, 08:16   #15
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Re: One off Cat design Value - ie. Non Production

Just looking are the pictures I see a lot of design detail that just looks right to me... small things to keep weight down, nothing that jumps out as indicative or poor design... frankly if I was in the market this is a boat I would absolutly want to go see.

So how would I price her? This vessels primary characteristic is her immense range under power. So you need to find out what other vessels with this range are selling for, because a lagoon/whatever with a range of <1000nm just isn't a comparable.

The problem is I frankly don't know any. I only know of a couple of power boats with trans-oceanic range and they are monohulls... they are also selling used for multiples of what this vessel is listed for (The Dashew FPB 64' for instance).... it's going to be tricky. If someone wants to cross oceans on a Catamaran what other reasonable options are there?
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