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Old 22-01-2015, 10:33   #31
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

Monte asks:
“Mark I know it's a different beast but TS mentioned the previous captain suggested speeds of 9-10 K downwind which the L450 would manage pretty easily as well. So my question to. TC was about why pay more for a 10 yr old boat. Maybe he prefers the finish and styling. I know the square type modern interiors and exteriors aren't for everyone. Not trying to push a lagoon either, but it doesn't sound like speed is a major concern for the OP.”

Those are excellent questions and the ones we are asking ourselves, along with several others. The comparison with more recent high volume production boats is a valid issue and is both difficult and disturbing for us.

For example, we have almost purchased a Catana in the 40 – 42 foot range several times. There are several 42s for sale in Florida for less than Adagio, three to six years newer and nicely equipped.

Or, there is a 2008 Lagoon 420 in Florida that has all the same equipment and is over $100,000 less expensive.

Or, a 2009 Lagoon 440 (my wife’s favorite and personal choice) in Georgia that is comparably equipped and $30,000 less

Adagio, the Brazapi 51, was outfitted, managed, and sailed by a good friend who knows every little Adagio detail. He is an experienced long distance catamaran sailor and currently owns several catamarans. He has sailed catamarans from NE Florida to San Diego and San Diego to Panama and back. Our friend is guiding us thru the purchase and transition.

Here are some of the reasons we are seriously considering the Brazapi 51 when newer, cheaper production cats are available:

Coolness – how many people can own a French designed, Belgian built, Florida outfitted semi-custom 51-foot catamaran?
Keels – the boat is designed to be beached and serviced while high and dry on a low tide
Beautiful Interior woodwork – the material and joinery is superb hand done work
High bridge deck clearance – our friend who used to be Adagios captain says they could sail hard to windward in 4’ Gulf current chop with almost no slamming
Visual Appeal – I love the lines and how she looks with that swoopy low cabin and gracefully curved hulls

Galley – my wife loves to cook and there is a huge galley with very nice appliances and lots of counter space
Cold Storage – there are four separate freezer/refrigerator devices & each can serve either purpose
Dry Storage – there is a great deal of high volume, easily accessed storage
Washer/Dryer – There is a real Bosch washer and separate dryer – my wife is a clean/neat freak and this option is mandatory and one of the reasons we need such a large boat - Happy wife...etc!
Maintenance – Each serviceable piece of equipment is in its own compartment with good 360 degree access
Maintenance – there is a large purpose built shop area with big work bench, tool storage and built in vise

Recent updates – new sail drives, bottom paint, decks, July ’14, standing and running rigging 2010, mainsail and RF system 2010, all new 110V electrical system including 9kw generator 2010

Staysail rigged – there is a very small inner stay with RF staysail. I love the staysails on our current boat (we have three!) and having one on Adagio gives me a good feeling (even if I have no idea of its utility or value on a big catamaran!)

Excellent Sails – custom made RF full batten main in 2010, Gennaker, Spinnaker

Setup for Solar – Four 8D house batteries and big rigid cockpit cover with room for 1200 watts of solar panels

Tankage – 200 gallons of fuel

High end WatermakerSea Recovery Ultrawhisper

Relatively shallow draft - 3' 0"

The things we do not like or would like to change are:

Financing the purchase is difficult and time consuming compared to well known high volume production catamaran.

Salon ceiling is low and slopes downward dramatically in forward section
Salon table and seating is too large and takes up too much room
Main salon feels small and claustrophobic compared to Lagoon 440 or even a Catana 42
Owners queen bed can only be boarded from foot
No settee in large owners cabin

51-feet by 28-feet is very expensive to keep at a dock

The boat may be very hard to sell in ten years when we need to move ashore

I am sure many of my kind readers will note that I say almost nothing about sailing the boat. We have not sailed the boat, our only catamaran sailing experience is racing Hobies off the beach, and we will probably not sail Adagio very much before we purchase her. I am counting on three facts offered by those with much more knowledge and experience than I have acquired:
- our friend has sailed the boat for thousands of miles
- Erik Larouge has a great reputation
- any 51' catamaran is going to be far more comfortable downwind than our 40' monohull that was designed in the late '80s as a 38' cruiser


Bottom line is that we are spending a lot of money to buy a unique boat that we may be stuck with for a very long time when we find there is no greater fool to purchase her in 2023 or so. The decision to purchase Adagio when compared to a Lagoon, Leopard, or Catana is probably not rational, BUT, owning and living aboard any 45+ foot catamaran is probably not rational in the opinion of most folks.

I am open to all comments about our idea to purchase a large and unique catamaran to serve as our only residence for the next six to ten years. I would especially appreciate comments that might bring us to our senses and save us from future insanity.

I have this distinct image of Adagio and us anchored in shallow, calm Bahamas waters while we decide where to next sail at 10-knots while my wife prepares lunch in a large, level, and stable galley. OH - the dreams!
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Old 22-01-2015, 10:56   #32
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

TS, you sound to me like you're weighing the compromises appropriately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post

Keels – the boat is designed to be beached and serviced while high and dry on a low tide
Does this mean it is not a dagger board boat? I thought the Brazapis were. This will affect it's windward performance, which among the other compromises you are weighing, may not necessarily be a deal maker/breaker for you.

Quote:
51-feet by 28-feet is very expensive to keep at a dock
Be aware that a beam of 28 feet may be a more significant concern when it comes to where you can get it hauled.

Quote:
BUT, owning and living aboard any 45+ foot catamaran is probably not rational in the opinion of most folks.
Well said.

Despite your relationship with the current owner and your trust in him, get an independent survey. This will be required by any financing entity anyway.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 22-01-2015, 11:08   #33
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Does this mean it is not a dagger board boat? I thought the Brazapis were.
The Freydis 49 is a board boat, but the Brazapi 50 is LAR (the 51 and 52 are just versions of the 50).

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Old 22-01-2015, 11:23   #34
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

OK, thanks Mark.

In that case, TS, this boat is no different with respect to beaching than other LAR keel boats. They all should be able to easily do it. But if your refers are water cooled, stash a few beers on ice....

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Old 22-01-2015, 11:26   #35
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

I wish we were in your situation. Kudos to you and the missus for all your cruising and lifestyle!!

We have only had multi-hulls so take this with a huge grain of salt and is mostly based on hearsay and some casual observations. From observation, I have seen catamarans can have difficulties in tight quarters, e.g. docking, where windage was a huge problem, irregardless of twin screws. Power boats have the same issues.

The other docking issue is free board. I don't know the cat you are looking at but you should consider line handing issues and getting on and off the boat when arriving and leaving. A swim step makes the aft end more manageable but the mid and fore ends can be high. In my mind just something to consider and not a show-stopper.

Like someone mentioned, the sails would be larger and heavier so you have to consider that. Power winches would help but you'd still have to deal with reefing (unless it is roller furling for the main).

If we were leaving for the cruise you describe and didn't have to worry about moorage up here before the trip, we would absolutely consider a cat. Too many friends who rave about them, quirks and all.
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Old 22-01-2015, 12:28   #36
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

The biggest difference between a multihull and monohull I found was minor additions to the ground tackle and anchoring. Putting aside which anchor is the best one most folks agree a bridle is a must and adjusting the bridle length with or without snubbed to control sailing at anchor is an important skill to develop.

Also think docking and turning in tight quarters is easy with twin screws. Concerns about wind and current ignore the fact that it is easier with twin screws than without.

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Old 22-01-2015, 14:39   #37
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

Thanks for the detailed reply TS. It seems you e done a lot of pros and cons on the purchase and only you and your wife can make the final call taking everything into consideration. I saw it was priced a while ago at 1.25m but someone mentioned it's now less than half that so maybe it's reasonably priced Last refit 5 yrs ago but maybe it hasn't left the dock much since, I guess your friend can advise you on that. Whatever the deal, I think with the euro/usd new French cats ( or any boat purchased in the EU) would now be 20% cheaper than the pricing you were looking at earlier.
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Old 22-01-2015, 14:49   #38
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post



For example, the B51 weighs 15,800lbs,



Mark

Btw Mark, the advertised displacement is 28000 lbs which seems more realistic. Maybe a different boat?

http://www.2hulls.com/usedcatamaran-2007/Adagio.html
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Old 22-01-2015, 15:55   #39
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

Monte:

A friend is working with the folks in Thailand to design sails for the new Brazapi being built there. He has sailed on Adagio and has sailed on the new versions. There is little similarity between the boat I am considering and the new ones from Thailand. Adagio was built in Belgium and outfitted in Florida.

The most current listing for Adagio is from Oct 2014 and shows a price of $525,000. We are not paying that much.

I just spent three hours touring catamarans at the Sunroad/San Diego show:

- Lagoon 450 $600,000 new with almost no cruising equipment on board
- Leopard 44 $620,000 with a lot of cruising equipment but it is so ugly that I would be embarrassed to own it.
- FP 44 Helia $630,000 with very little cruising equipment

All three of those boats are cheap feeling and tacky looking inside (IMHO) compared to the hand crafted woodwork in Adagio.

At a minimum the three boats I looked at are lacking the following cruising gear that is installed and tested on Adagio:

- spinnaker $5,000
- gennaker $5,000
- three anchors and lots of chain $2,000
- watermaker $7,000
- big house batteries $1,000
- extra refrigeration/freezer space $1,000
- dinghy and motor $4,000
- life raft $5,000
- trash compactor (a serious problem in remote areas)
- clothes washer / dryer $2,000

That is about $30,000 additional expense plus the labor to install it.

Additionally, Adagio has a 9Kw generator and AirCon with individual controls in each cabin. Those items are not essential but sure are nice and add another $30,000 to the cost.

I doubt you can find a comparbly equipped newish 45 - 50 foot catamaran for less than $700,000.

Besides, almost new catamarans offend my delicate traditionalist eyes.
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Old 22-01-2015, 16:58   #40
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

Good news TS, it sounds like you've found your next boat!
If you can't live with the current styling and finishes, then older is probably a good choice for you, it's important to if not love, at least like the look of your boat
You've had enough sailing experience to know if a yacht is laid out well and well fitted so to your original question on handling, I agree with the other posters who think you will find it easier to handle than a 40' mono. For me sailing a 40' cat is as easy as handling a hobie 18. Very basic sail controls. The worst part is docking in a marina, but it think it's much easier than a mono.
A test sail or two would definitely set your mind at ease, even if it's on another similar sized cat.
Come for a sail with us if your anywhere near the Caribbean.
:cheers;
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Old 22-01-2015, 20:12   #41
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Btw Mark, the advertised displacement is 28000 lbs which seems more realistic. Maybe a different boat?

Used Brazapi 51 catamaran for sale - Adagio
I was going by the specs on the Lerouge website for the Brazapi. He lists lightship at 15,800lbs and cruising load at 22,200lbs.

Perhaps Adagio's higher displacement reflects gear and fitout? It does have larger engines, corian counters and a 9kW generator, among other things not in the base boat.

But even at 28000 for a loaded 52' boat - compared to 34000 for a lightship, no options L450?

Not to mention looks. Although esthetics are a highly personal preference, a Lagoon 620 just anchored right next to us this evening. I can't go out in the cockpit without averting my eyes, it hurts so bad to look at that thing. Lagoon beat it six ways to sunday with an ugly stick. It is difficult for me to even believe there are people that think that thing looks good. I have truly never seen an uglier catamaran.

Sorry about that - I generally don't like to say this type of thing, but good god is that thing ugly. While your L400 is differently styled than most, the styling is not so bad at that size, and it looks unique. However, this styling obviously does not scale up.

Mark
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Old 22-01-2015, 23:08   #42
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

No doubt you have found a great sailing catamaran.

"Salon ceiling is low and slopes downward dramatically in forward section
Salon table and seating is too large and takes up too much room
Main salon feels small and claustrophobic compared to Lagoon 440 or even a Catana 42. Owners queen bed can only be boarded from foot
No settee in large owners cabin"

These issues are not uncommon with Lerouge cats. A couple I have been on in Australia were similar.

The rigging and sails are now 5 years old. A factor in the price you will pay.

All the best in your decision making.
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Old 23-01-2015, 04:32   #43
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

One of your original question was handling the boat. It will be a piece of cake, we went from 37ft mono to 45ft cat. Never sailed a large cat prior to purchasing, never even did a sea trial. Boat was one year old, picked up in Key West went to Dry Tortugas, then 250 mile overnight trip home. Never an issue handling if you can back a 40ft mono in a slip the cat is simple. Buy it and you will never go back.

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Old 23-01-2015, 09:04   #44
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

Wow Colemj, pretty strong words in describing the appearance of the Lagoon 620! I suspect the design brief was somewhat akin to designing a small cruise ship: accomodation and generous common areas being the key component. Many will no doubt be used for crewed charter and the rest for people who are quite prepared to give up performance - and yes, sleek lines, in order to maximize accomodation. Not your set of priorites, but there is no denying that there is a market for such a boat.

Many criticize the aesthetics of recent cruise shipe over the more elegant, older transatlantic ships of years gone by, but there is also no denying that these new cruise ships are at least able to carry sufficient passengers in sufficient comfort to be profitable. In the same way, I have little doubt that the aesthetics of the Lagoon 620 were largely a case of form following intended function and I, for one, am not prepared to criticize the taste of those who choose the boat because it meets their needs better than other, prettier boats.

Like yourself, TacomaSailor gives some priority to aesthetics and performance while acknowledging that he and his wife will be sacrificing some accomodation to get them. Of course, their desire is for a boat to accomodate only themselves and occasional guests and they are able to afford to go to 51 feet LOA in order to get the balance that suits their needs.

In the end result, would you use such strong words to criticize the appearance of a minivan (and inferentially, those who would choose to buy one) as opposed to a Ferrari or BMW, without considering the purchaser's needs and priorities? Suggesting that the styling of Monte's Lagoon 400 is "not so bad at that size" is a gratuitous remark that really does not advance this discussion beyond the comments already made by Tacomasailor: that one of the advantages of the Brazapi 51 over the Lagoon 420 and 440 was "visual appeal".

I know it was not your intention to insult the owners of the world's most popular brand of catamarans, but those sorts of comments tend to do exactly that. I'm sure Monte could give a spirited defence of his rationale for buying his Lagoon 400 in preference to your Manta 40 - cats of similar size. Certainly interior space, load carrying ability and comfort are greater while performance is comparable. However, the point is that they shouldn't have to.

My own boat is certainly far from pretty. In fact, I generally refer to her as the 'tank', or 'work-boa't of cruising catamarans! However, she was what I could afford at the time without borrowing money and was better suited to the needs of my wife and myself than any other boat anywhere near the same price point. Indeed, to get comparable strength, offshore safety, accomodation and equipment inventory in a fast and pretty boat would have likely cost multiples of what we paid.

So if you are ever anchored next to our boat, you are welcome to avert your eyes. As for me, I have actually developed a fondness for our ugly duckling!

Brad
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Old 23-01-2015, 09:16   #45
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Re: One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

"Got to be good looking 'cos he's so hard to see..."

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