Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-06-2010, 20:44   #106
cruiser

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brisbane AUS
Boat: Cowther 43 - Hunter 40.5
Posts: 1,006
At the end of the day, irrespective of the cause for this incident, the obvious thing that stands out is this design of catamaran is unseaworthy and dangerous. When you are upside down in only 25K of wind an calm seas the thing that will bother you the most is well... that you are upside down. The cause will be a secondary concern. Shitty boats like this give good multihulls a bad name. Who puts rudders in front of sail-drives????
__________________

__________________
dennisail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 21:18   #107
D&D
Marine Service Provider
 
D&D's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Boat: now working Syd Harbour charters
Posts: 1,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
irrespective of the cause for this incident, the obvious thing that stands out is this design of catamaran is unseaworthy and dangerous.
That's a very big call indeed, in two respects...

Firstly the logic behind "irrespective of the cause" leads to the conclusion that any capsize situation where the cause was, say, improper loading or poor sailing, therefore involved an unseaworthy vessel. From there, it's a necessary step to conclude that ALL vessels are unseaworthy, given that all vessels can, under certain conditions, be made to capsize.

Then secondly, even if we attribute some importance to the cause of a capsize in determining whether the capsized vessel was seaworthy, we still need to enquire whether the vessel was seaworthy for its intended use. A high performance vessel may be seaworthy for its intended use, but not at all seaworthy for the loads and sea states involved in extended cruising...and, of course, the inverse would also be true and may apply in Yeloya's situation, viz. a cruising vessel being pressed into a high performance situation.

It seems we are now seeing what is probably an inevitable consequence of the pressure for more performance (typically evidenced by larger sail plans) on cruising vessels. As the sail plan grows in size, so does the need to more actively manage those sails as winds increase, but the need for more active management may be at odds with both the perception and the skill sets of the typical cruiser. So for example...out goes the cruiser, expecting to enjoy a cocktail while zipping along in fresh and gusty conditions on a nice level platform...and on the same day the racers go out keeping their hands on the sheets...and the sail plans for the former are growing closer to the latter with each new design.

FP are a very professional organisation with a long and successful repuattion for building very seaworthy vessels. So we look forward to hearing about Yeloya's approach to FP regarding these facts.

We also admit our own guilt. We are part of the pressure for more performance out of cruising vessels, especially in light airs, i.e. we like the larger sail plans that will keep our vessel moving along nicely in very light conditions. We always, however, abide by the rule...if you're thinking about a reef, you should be reefed.

Yeloya, what wind speed do FP recommend for the 1st reef?
__________________

__________________
D&D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 21:20   #108
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
At the end of the day, irrespective of the cause for this incident, the obvious thing that stands out is this design of catamaran is unseaworthy and dangerous. When you are upside down in only 25K of wind an calm seas the thing that will bother you the most is well... that you are upside down. The cause will be a secondary concern. Shitty boats like this give good multihulls a bad name. Who puts rudders in front of sail-drives????
The rudder placement probably didn't have anything to do with this.

BTW, there are several models from different manufacturers with rudder in front the saildrive. It's mostly an issue at low speed with a single engine.
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 21:36   #109
D&D
Marine Service Provider
 
D&D's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Boat: now working Syd Harbour charters
Posts: 1,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
Who puts rudders in front of sail-drives????

This is a thread on this topic at...

propellers and rudders...what's first? - Multihulls4us Forums

The conclusion appears to be that, like so many things on vessels, there are advantages and disadvantages. It would certainly be a mistake, however, to assume that a design is wrong simply because it is relatively new.

With great respect to dennisail and the accumulated wisdom of this Forum's members, we are very reluctant to embrace the view that the designers at FP and Lagoon (who both now produce vessels with rudders forward of the sail drives and who between them for MANY years built a HUGE share of the world's cruising catamarans) are making "s---ty boats"...
__________________
D&D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 21:39   #110
cruiser

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brisbane AUS
Boat: Cowther 43 - Hunter 40.5
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Firstly the logic behind "irrespective of the cause" leads to the conclusion that any capsize situation where the cause was, say, improper loading or poor sailing
Hehe, I did stir the nest a little

Irrespective of the cause in THIS SCENARIO. Which was, light wind, fair seas and a boat being operated by an experienced cat sailor. People are going on about the reefing. The conditions were light breeze. No one reefs for 25K winds in 10k of wind just in case. There is NO acceptable reason where a 25K gust should be able to flip a cruising cat. Is anyone going to say this is safe?
__________________
dennisail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 21:40   #111
D&D
Marine Service Provider
 
D&D's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Boat: now working Syd Harbour charters
Posts: 1,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
It's mostly an issue at low speed with a single engine.
Not sure we understand this comment Dot Dun...is it intended to refer to the situation of sail drives aft of the rudders? ...or to the Yeloya near-capsize situation?

Could we trouble you to expand a bit on what you meant here, please?
__________________
D&D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 21:50   #112
Registered User
 
Portobello's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hobart
Boat: Portobello - a Walter Knoop designed "DOVEN 30"
Posts: 231
Images: 5
I have seen a big cat do this once - impressive sight - didn't have a camera then either!
__________________
Love the journey!
Portobello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 21:59   #113
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by D&D View Post
Not sure we understand this comment Dot Dun...is it intended to refer to the situation of sail drives aft of the rudders? ...or to the Yeloya near-capsize situation?

Could we trouble you to expand a bit on what you meant here, please?
Sorry, the reference is a general comment about rudders in front of saildrives, not Yeloya's experience. My experience has been that slow speed manuvering on a 2 engine cat using only 1 engine is difficult when the rudders are fore of the prop as steerage from the rudder takes ~1kt of speed. When the rudder is washed from the prop, i.e. rudder aft of the saildrive, you gain steerage sooner.

BTW, I read the post you referenced in the other forum. I tested the rudder fore of saildrive on a Lagoon 380 back in ~1999, so the design has been around for a while.

I had made a comment earlier in this thread that the Lipari rudder is fore of the saildrive thinking that may have played a role in Yeloya's experience. But after further thinking about and reading other's posts, I don't believe the rudder placement played a role, IMO.
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 22:20   #114
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hawaii
Boat: Atlantic 42 Catamaran
Posts: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon View Post
You're right, I should put a disclaimer after all my posts, something to the effect of "these figures are based on conjectures, based on speculation, based on flimsy understanding of the situation...acquired second hand".
Opps. I am sorry I was reading reading too much into your statements. And I doubt your understanding is as "flimsy" as mine.

Tom.
__________________
tsmwebb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2010, 22:49   #115
D&D
Marine Service Provider
 
D&D's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Boat: now working Syd Harbour charters
Posts: 1,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
There is NO acceptable reason where a 25K gust should be able to flip a cruising cat.
There is a LOT of strength in what you say here dennisail!

We go back, however, to our suggestion that all this controversy (and Yeloya's unhappy experience) may at the 'bottom line' be attributable to the trend toward more performance out of cruising vessels. Bigger sail plans are being designed and introduced to extract performance in light air...and the bigger the sail plan(s), the lower will be the speed of the gust that will well-and-truly upset the applecart with full sails!

Taking an 'armchair quaterback' perspective, it seems to us that the solution here, as Yeloya saw the dark water bringing the gust, was to man the sheets and be ready to let go. Unless the main was already against the spreader -- That's a whole different dimension of course! -- releasing the sheets would quickly power the vessel down on the gust(s). If the main was already fully out, the proper course was perhaps to head up before the gust arrived to again de-power the vessel in that fashion...? If the main was fully out and the gust was already on the vessel, the proper course would seem to be to ride out the gust, but probably NOT head up at that point? As you said dennisail, "(n)o one reefs for 25K winds in 10k of wind just in case".
__________________
D&D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2010, 00:40   #116
cruiser

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brisbane AUS
Boat: Cowther 43 - Hunter 40.5
Posts: 1,006
If I had the money for a large cat and could specify the rig I would certainly go for the bigger rig and be prepared to reef more often. Nothing is more annoying to me than using the engine so light air performance means a lot. Who knows maybe I might end up coasting in light air and be hit with a big gust like this too. I guess if your rig is so big that it might flip you with a 25k gust it is on the dangerous side though. I would have never thought that production cruising cats would be made with standard sailplans this large. I would hazard a guess that the sailplan on the cat in question was not large enough to flip it on its own, but in combination with ineffective rudders causing a cat version of a broach the result was a catastrophe. Either way the design is dangerous IMO.
__________________
dennisail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2010, 02:27   #117
Registered User
 
Eleven's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Southampton UK
Boat: Jaguar 22 mono called Arfur.
Posts: 1,220
Images: 3
One of the 'niggles' I have when sailing is that I can't pay out the sheet by reversing the winch. In a good breeze it can be bar tight and getting a tangle on the winch is common, and a finger caught is always a worry. There are also, in industry, over torque release clutches, which would limit the load that can be applied to the sheet so that the 'boat' will relax the genoa in a gust.
I couldn't afford it, but it must be do-able. Are they actually available?
As a new boat build the cost will be barely noticeable.
ALSO: Why no computer aided sailing. We've got the auto-helm systems, we've got electric winches. Doesn't need much more to adjust sail trim to suit wind power and direction, and optimise course to suit.
Hey, a bit more and we can send a boat around the world with an embryo on board, break the 'youngest' record for once and for all (and leave these folks to fund their own adventures out of their own pockets).
__________________
Ex Prout 31 Sailor, Now it's a 22ft Jaguar called 'Arfur' here in sunny Southampton, UK.
A few places left in Quayside Marina and Kemps Marina.
Eleven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2010, 02:29   #118
Registered User
 
Eleven's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Southampton UK
Boat: Jaguar 22 mono called Arfur.
Posts: 1,220
Images: 3
Seriously though, self relieving, or releasing clutches would be help in these sudden gust situations.
__________________
Ex Prout 31 Sailor, Now it's a 22ft Jaguar called 'Arfur' here in sunny Southampton, UK.
A few places left in Quayside Marina and Kemps Marina.
Eleven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2010, 02:45   #119
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Land-locked at the moment :(
Posts: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
Seriously though, self relieving, or releasing clutches would be help in these sudden gust situations.
I don't envy the engineer that gets to design something that 'reliably' knows the difference between good gusts, bad gusts, altering the sail, and the plain crashing of the boat. Too sensitive and people will complain nonstop about it ruining their sailing experience by loosening the sail all the time. Or not sensitive enough and letting boats flip...
__________________
Event_Horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2010, 03:07   #120
cruiser

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brisbane AUS
Boat: Cowther 43 - Hunter 40.5
Posts: 1,006
What about a gyro that will detect when the boat is flying a hull then release the sheets? Gyros sound expensive but they are cheap.
__________________

__________________
dennisail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which Is More Forgiving - Cruising Monohull or Cruising Multihull maxingout General Sailing Forum 36 10-02-2010 06:41
Cruising Cat vs. Cruising Mono Performance ssullivan Multihull Sailboats 100 03-01-2010 14:05
on the verge... blove8 Meets & Greets 5 07-10-2007 15:18



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:14.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.