Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-06-2010, 11:46   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: Maine Cat 41
Posts: 325
Carrying full sail in 25-30 kts of wind is asking for trouble. Strygwaldir is correct. Multihulls need to be 'sailed by the numbers'. You won't feel like you're in trouble--until you are! Even so, the boat was already 'talking' to you with the strong weather helm. On monohulls you get the spray flying, the lee rail down and in the water and, usually, a weather helm. Multihulls, and cats specifically, only 'whisper' their discontent. Many folks think that they need to 'learn' how to sail a cat after sailing a monohull. They sail the same way but the only real difference is this one aspect:

Thou Shalt Sail/Reef by the Numbers and not by Feel.

20 kts (true wind)is a good number for my boat but probably isn't the same for all of them. I reef once at 20 and again at 25. That's my own 'rule' and while it may be conservative, I'm pretty confident I'll be upright. In fact, I've found little speed loss in reefing prematurely in the 15-20 knot range as well. If I'm thinking that the wind is only going to increase anyway, reefing while the loads and seas are smaller is a better move. It's still appropriate to also follow the traditional maxim, "It's time to reef when you think about it."
__________________

__________________
cchesley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 14:13   #17
Marine Service Provider

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Marmaris
Boat: FP Orana 2010, Lipari 2011, Hélia 2013, Catana C 47 2013
Posts: 1,032
Thanks a lot for all of the inputs. Basically, the comments are about easing the mail, that I should have reefed earlier, etc.. And I agree with all. Of course, I have plenty of excuses for not doing so, but the point is not this. The point is that until this moment I was fully convinced that in 20 knots of true from behind (actually it was less, but the gusting that came was max at this level) when the water is flat whatever mistake I could make, I should have stayed out of this kind of trouble. My real problem , I think, was to overestimate the capability of the cat that I was in..

2 minutes before the accident the wind was blowing 0-2knots !! I could see the gust coming form the surface of the sea and I thought the boat could have easily handled this. And actually the speed went up to 10,5 knots which I believe is within the standards.

If the general consensus is that a cruising cat is "unsafe" or at risk (even) under these conditions , then I think I should review my convictions about the safety aspects of the cats..
Or should I pray that there is some sort of design error specific to this cat (undersized rudder and / or keel, too high sail area / displacement ratio, etc..)

Cheers

Yeloya
__________________

__________________
yeloya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 14:27   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
I think you are being too quick to judge both yourself and the cat. Reefing and feathering the main are both simple ways to avoid the problem. I don't think a monhull of similar performance would have been inherently safer. It would likely have healed alarmingly, perhaps broached in the same conditions.
Noboby makes one*, but if there were a cat with the performance of a monohull that could shrug this off (as in very slow and massively stable) it would have done the same.

*well, maybe Island Packet did [g]
__________________
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 14:35   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
idpnd's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Almería, ES
Boat: Chiquita 46 - Libertalia
Posts: 1,551
Impressed! Ive been skippering a friends (10 metre) cat extensively and I didnt think I could get one hull out the water even if I tried, probably quite scary
__________________
sv Libertalia
idpnd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 14:37   #20
Registered User
 
Tnflakbait's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Southern California
Boat: CSK, 33' Aita Pe'ape'a
Posts: 338
Images: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy daugherty View Post
Turning down in a gust is ONLY appropriate in ultra-high performance multis sailing below a beam reach, where their boat speed adds a considerable amount to the apparent wind. It is not appropriate for any cruiser. I'm not sure where the trade-off occurs, but I think its limited to boats that fly a hull as a matter of routine, and that doesn't even include Outremer Ultra lights! For our PDQs and Catanas and FP's et al, heading up is the answer for a gust from any point of sail above a run. Easing the sheets should be the immediate response, always!
I have to disagree with part of this statement. While the first response should be to ease the main sheet or traveler, you should ALWAYS bear away in a strong gust on a multihull. This is especially important if the boat has any type of momentum. ( 10 kts plus) The turn upwind will lift the windward hull like a pendulum. A bear away will often increase speed, but in turn relieve unnecessary heeling forces. The turn upwind was likely what lifted the windward hull in this situation.
__________________
Tnflakbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 14:59   #21
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOGAO View Post
thinwater,

In that much wind, a cruising cat with rudders a bit too small and an over-trimmed main would be unable to turn downwind.

Fair Winds,
Mike
Exactly. He may not have been able turn down wind at all, even a few moments earlier.

However, there are more reasons to head down than just those applicable to a fast boat:
  • Rolling up some jib is going to be easier down wind, as the jib is blanketed by the main.
  • The sails will stall, reducing drive.
  • If the chute is up it will stall and be blanketed. With a chute up, turning down wind is ALWAYS better than up wind. Easing the main won't change much, and blowing the chute sheet is a mess. Better, head down and peal the chute.
However, reefing is still a good idea, because you are still over powered, particularly if the boat suddenly rounds up!

When do you head down? On beach cats we always called apparent wind on the beam the "line of death." Forward of the beam, ease sails and head up. Beam or aft, hold and bear off. IF you expect really big gusts (thunderstorm?) head up and peal all of the sail off. Bearing off won't be enough if a micro burst hits you off the wind.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 16:27   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
idpnd's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Almería, ES
Boat: Chiquita 46 - Libertalia
Posts: 1,551
If youve got such strong weather helm, its a question of trim really..
__________________
sv Libertalia
idpnd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 16:39   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,313
When I was new to my cat I found that on a beam reach with the main sheeted in too tight I could not get the boat to turn downwind. The weather helm used most of the available rudder power just to hold it straight. When I tried top turn down wind nothing happened. The boat slowed a bit as the rudders stalled but it didn't round up. I eased the main and turned downwind without a problem. When in gusty conditions I always try to be in a position to release the main sheet if needed. Since my cat is a narrow cat it tends to heel a bit more than most cats but I've never managed to get a hull out of the water. Does the cat in question have stub keels or dagger boards? Mine has keels and since they're long it may be that they tend to hold the boat in a straight line when the rudders stall, whereas a short dagger board may allow the hull to pivot faster.
__________________
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 17:10   #24
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,312
Releasing the mainsheet is far more effective than turning downwind or releasing the traveler--the response is immediate, the top of the sail depowers first, and you will end up crashing back down on two hulls. Remember that when you are flyiing a hull, the righting moment is proportional to the cosine of the angle of heel, and you are at considerable risk of turning turtle if you get over about 20 degrees.
__________________
donradcliffe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 17:26   #25
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,329
Yeloya:

You did not say what sails were up. Was it a smallish jib or a self tacking jib, or was it a 100+ percent genoa?

I am interested because that can lead to imbalance. I know that my cat, when I have a smaller jib up in strong conditions, is quite imbalanced unless I reef the main, keep the traveller down a bit more than normal, or truly concentrate on keeping my speed up. With genoa, the balance is far better, though I could not carry that in strong wind unless on a very deep course.

The small jib seems to be popular on cruising cats, particularly charters, but it is often an unbalanced sail plan. Often the keels are placed well forward, to allow for balanced drying at low tide, but that is often MUCH further forward than best for sailing (COE and CLR vs. COG).
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 18:35   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Boat: R & C Leopard 38 (2001)
Posts: 148
IMO your weather helm was clearly yelling at you. I highly recommend all cat sailors get some high wind/high speed "jollies" in a rental plastic hobie cat and drive their cruising cats like a school bus full of kids...

Otherwise, If you had listened to your weather helm and balanced the rig (sheet out and bear off as the wind increased) you would have continued to accelerate.... bringing you closer and closer to the "edge" than you already were. (Somewhat like trying to drive a motor home like a Lotus Elise that you just stole.) Problem is; unlike a monohull which will lay down, on a cat...eventually something has to give.

Rig for the gusts...

Dave
__________________
Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 19:48   #27
Registered User
 
sww914's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Punta De Mita
Boat: Vagabond 39 Hull # 1
Posts: 1,842
Blow the mainsheet!
Easing the mainsheet as soon as the gust hit would have changed everything. The weather helm was the symptom and unfortunately lifting a hull and rounding up turned out to be the cure that the boat had to do it's self.
Maybe the boat could have tuned over but it didn't. It fixed the situation without flipping over.
__________________
sww914 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 20:50   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 107
I think as mentioned the turn had to have been rapid and the pendulum effect lifted the hull. The polars on most cruising cats don't have a hull out of the water until you see around 38 knots of wind or more. In many cruising cats you will lose the rig before you lift a hull. I reef at 18 knots actual wind sailing close hauled. The boat goes faster once the reef is in. I will carry full sail on a reach longer but I am always reefed by 24 knots of wind. I have never had a weather helm issue on my boat so it does suggest the main was really miss trimmed. Blowing the mainsheet can be harder then it looks if you are not ready for it. In high winds I use only the self tailing winch. You will never get a cam cleat undone quickly under that kind of load. You would first have to sheet the mainsheet in a bit to unload the cleat and then release it.
__________________
sailvi767 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 21:02   #29
Registered User
 
oscar's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 68
Two things....

1 You report 20-25..... were you looking at the instrument when it happened? And have you calibrated said instrument? I suspect it was a lot more.

2

Quote:
An extra puff is all it takes to overpower the rudders, and the boat heads up very quickly. Then car dynamics take over and you are flying a hull.
Actually, not only the car dynamics (centrifugal force). We've all played spinning a piece of rope and know that the tip will "howl" in the wind..... In order to describe an arc the end has to move a lot faster than the center. So too the sailboat heeled and rounding up. The foot of the mast moves a lot less than the head. If they stay together the wind speed at the head of the mast in the "roundup arc" increases dramatically, increasing the long armed heeling force even more. Don't know the numbers, maybe one of the engineer types can fill those in.
__________________
Out there, alone, there is only truth.
oscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 21:15   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Currently Milford, CT
Boat: S/V Running Fish - Passport 40
Posts: 78
If a cruising cat is in danger of capsize in 3 foot seas and 30 knots of wind simply because it's got a little to much sail up and isn't trimmed well...how can it be safe for offshore sailing?
__________________

__________________
RunningFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which Is More Forgiving - Cruising Monohull or Cruising Multihull maxingout General Sailing Forum 36 10-02-2010 06:41
Cruising Cat vs. Cruising Mono Performance ssullivan Multihull Sailboats 100 03-01-2010 14:05
on the verge... blove8 Meets & Greets 5 07-10-2007 15:18



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.