On the Verge of Flipping-Over a Cruising Cat...

[henryv]

It was a PDQ32 - the Coast Guard rescue footage is on U Tube.

[dennisail]

Does anyone have a link to the footage?

[Dave]

YouTube - Coast Guard units rescue three from overturned sailboat

Dave

[DtM]

It seems they were in trouble long before they flipped and the crew was maybe not that experienced. Although having said that they were experienced enough to recognise that they were in trouble.

[sarafina]

Originally Posted by bayview

So two cats have flipped, that we know of, during this thread.
How long before the question is asked..... Are cats safe offshore?

Don't know. How many monos have turned turtle in the last 21 days? The good news with monos is they *USUALLY* right them selves. Or sink...

Cats stay belly up in an embarrassing position, for all the world to see. Makes it easy to get bad press I bet...

my (admittedly limited) experience confirms the advice here. Reef early, reef often. The scariest moments I have ever had sailing were on a 40' tri that had an inexperienced captain who didn't anticipate tide and wind changes off Treasure Island and almost landed us on the western rocks...

He had me at the wheel while he tried to drop sail in a suddenly gusty wind. We were unable to turn up into the wind to facilitate this exercise because our prop was outta the water and we were skidding along the surface towards the VERY nearby shore. I figured out why I had no control when I leaned out over the back and saw the prop spinning. I couldn't hear it over the wind. At that point I put 3 totally novice sailors, passengers for all intents, over the high side until they were clutching the rails and feet were in the water. That finally pulled us down enough that I was able to bring us up into the wind and the captain was able to manhandle the sails down.

Scared the girls to death. Scared me and the captain too. I never sail past Treasure island without thinking about that day...

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by DtM

It seems they were in trouble long before they flipped and the crew was maybe not that experienced. Although having said that they were experienced enough to recognise that they were in trouble.

Experienced enough to turn on the epirb but not experienced enough to put on life jackets. Hmmm.

[DtM]

Good point.

No doubt there is more to this than meets the eye. Well done the rescuers.

[Toys_with_time]

In response to a few posts as to FP's recommended reefing points for Lipari, manual on 2010 plated Lipari gives (for apparent wind speeds):

Upwind
0-18 knots nil
18-24 1 reef, 2/3 jib
24-30 2 reefs, 1/2 jib
30-34 3 reefs 1/3 jib
34-40 3 reefs 1/5 jib OR main down, 1/10 jib
Over 40 Stiff drink or Pray

Downwind
0-15 knots nil
15-20 1 reef, 2/3 jib
20-25 2 reefs, 1/2 jib
25-30 3 reefs 1/3 jib OR 3 reefs 1/5 jib
30 - 35 main down, 1/10 jib
Over 40 Go surfing

(I admit poetic licence for the over 40 part, balance verbatim from the FP manual page 9, dated 30/06/09)

TwT

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Toys_with_time

In response to a few posts as to FP's recommended reefing points for Lipari, manual on 2010 plated Lipari gives (for apparent wind speeds):

Upwind
0-18 knots nil
18-24 1 reef, 2/3 jib
24-30 2 reefs, 1/2 jib
30-34 3 reefs 1/3 jib
34-40 3 reefs 1/5 jib OR main down, 1/10 jib
Over 40 Stiff drink or Pray

Downwind
0-15 knots nil
15-20 1 reef, 2/3 jib
20-25 2 reefs, 1/2 jib
25-30 3 reefs 1/3 jib OR 3 reefs 1/5 jib
30 - 35 main down, 1/10 jib
Over 40 Go surfing

(I admit poetic licence for the over 40 part, balance verbatim from the FP manual page 9, dated 30/06/09)

TwT

So, the question is:

Yeloya, do you still believe FP has responsibility for the incident you experienced since you were operating the vessel outside of their recommendations?

[Eleven]

This is a very tender boat if those are the figures.
My own CRUISER needs a reef in the main, first of three, at about thirty kts appt but still sails well at 40+ with all sail set.
This might be a Volvo v Ferrari comparison but a Ferrari is not a CRUISER.

[colemj]

Tender might be relative. Those mainsail recommendations are the same as those for our Manta (we have a different jib arrangement, but similar recommendations). I don't know of many boats where full sail in 30kts would be optimum. Full sail in 40+ is just asking for trouble on any boat.

Mark

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Eleven

This is a very tender boat if those are the figures.
My own CRUISER needs a reef in the main, first of three, at about thirty kts appt but still sails well at 40+ with all sail set.
This might be a Volvo v Ferrari comparison but a Ferrari is not a CRUISER.

Is this the manufacturers recommendation for your boat, or just the way you sail it?

I believe that's the point of this whole thread. Once you stray outside the manufacturer's recommended operating range you should not attempt to hold them liable. Sure, these recommendations are probably conservative, I'm sure they've built a good margin for error (or idiot proofing depending on your perspective ).

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by DotDun

So, the question is:

Yeloya, do you still believe FP has responsibility for the incident you experienced since you were operating the vessel outside of their recommendations?

Well, first of all I don't keep anybody responsable for any thing. The reason I wrote to FP was to avoid anybody being hurt because of their design error. (my humble guest..)
I've just asked them to give a second look to this issue. As many forumers agreed to, the problem was a rudder stalling that was designed 42% smaller than their own and previous design on Fidji. (Not to mention the rudder axe which is well 3 ft aft on Fidji compared to Lipari..)
I hope they will carefully evaluate what has happened and draw their own conclusion.
The reef recommendations for FP (I assume for every cat) is by far too conservative and for a very good and understandable reasons.
I know many people will disagree but if I am a capitain with some experience on a catamaran, I put the reef on my own judgement based on the crew I have on board, the sea state, the overall behaviour of the wessel, the wheather forecast and so on. Of course I do take into consideration the manufacturer's recommendations as well but not only that..
Once again, the problem was the stalling rudder, hence, lost of directional stability. We all know that these boats are designed to handle up to 18 kts min which you can easily reach surfing down the waves even w/out any sail.. I am therefore saying (if the problem was really rudder stalling) even with hundreds reefs you would have had the same problem..
The biggest mistake was that I felt somehow that the rudder feedback was strange and I should have slowed down to find out what was the problem. Probably, someone with even more experience could have see what the problem was a couple of minutes earlier than me. I would never imagine that a company with such a good experience on catamarans and nice reputation could have made such a mistake...(If I were on a custom made cat, I would have definately slowed down earlier..)
For our monohull fans that can draw their own conclusion, all I can say is that despite this critical error the boat safely landed. How about the monuhulls that lost their keels and killed people ???

Cheers

Yeloya

[imagine2frolic]

I would never imagine that a company with such a good experience on catamarans and nice reputation could have made such a mistake...(If I were on a custom made cat, I would have definately slowed down earlier..)

One might possibly say the same thing about Toyota, and thier throttles. Just possible a custom cat may have behaved much better? Depends on the design I would think......i2f

[DotDun]

I disagree with your analysis.

Originally Posted by yeloya

Well, first of all I don't keep anybody responsable for any thing. The reason I wrote to FP was to avoid anybody being hurt because of their design error. (my humble guest..)
I've just asked them to give a second look to this issue. As many forumers agreed to, the problem was a rudder stalling that was designed 42% smaller than their own and previous design on Fidji. (Not to mention the rudder axe which is well 3 ft aft on Fidji compared to Lipari..)
I hope they will carefully evaluate what has happened and draw their own conclusion.
The reef recommendations for FP (I assume for every cat) is by far too conservative and for a very good and understandable reasons...

Apparently your assumption is not accurate.

Originally Posted by yeloya

I know many people will disagree but if I am a capitain with some experience on a catamaran, I put the reef on my own judgement based on the crew I have on board, the sea state, the overall behaviour of the wessel, the wheather forecast and so on. Of course I do take into consideration the manufacturer's recommendations as well but not only that..

Would you please state why you know better than the engineers at FP? Your profile lists you as a commercial vendor, are you a nautical engineer? A yacht broker? A charter broker?

Originally Posted by yeloya

Once again, the problem was the stalling rudder, hence, lost of directional stability. We all know that these boats are designed to handle up to 18 kts min which you can easily reach surfing down the waves even w/out any sail.. I am therefore saying (if the problem was really rudder stalling) even with hundreds reefs you would have had the same problem....

No, the problem was your lack of paying attention. When the weather helm overpowered the boat and you started the turn upwind, the apparent wind speed increased dramatically. The kinetic energy lifted the hull, not the wind. It's your fault.

Originally Posted by yeloya

The biggest mistake was that I felt somehow that the rudder feedback was strange and I should have slowed down to find out what was the problem. Probably, someone with even more experience could have see what the problem was a couple of minutes earlier than me. I would never imagine that a company with such a good experience on catamarans and nice reputation could have made such a mistake...(If I were on a custom made cat, I would have definately slowed down earlier..)
For our monohull fans that can draw their own conclusion, all I can say is that despite this critical error the boat safely landed. How about the monuhulls that lost their keels and killed people ???

Cheers

Yeloya

If FP designed their boats as you wish, the light wind performance would be dreadful. Catamarans don't tell you when there is too much wind, you have to be smarter than the boat. Your desire to run 10-11 kts in a cruising catamaran caused your problem.