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Old 24-06-2010, 08:34   #151
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Originally Posted by tsmwebb View Post
Most cruising cat capsizes are a result of gross negligence on the part of the user.

Tom.
This is the standard I think we should focus on. Anything less than gross negligence on the part of the captain should never, NEVER, result in a hull lifting on a cruising cat. Is 25 kts of wind with full sail pushing the envelope a bit? Perhaps. But in flat calm seas? If the rudders hadn't stalled, the boat would otherwise have been just fine in those conditions. The abrupt turn, not wind pressure, lifted the hull. So why did the rudder stall? Was it too small or placed incorrectly? Was the jib undersized relative to the main? What design element could have prevented the performance envelope from being breached? There are any number of design changes that would have made the boat perfectly safe under the circumstances described without either reefing or degrading low wind performance.

I primarily fault the boat because it is not an infrequent occurrence to get a 25 kt puff, even if the winds seem stable at less than 15 kts. Only the most conservative skippers reef at 15 kts of wind. Furthermore, I'd wager that most other cruising cats of similar size are perfectly safe under the conditions that caused Yeloya's uncontrolled turn. A cruising cat should be designed to maintain stability throughout all commonly occurring conditions, barring gross negligence on the part of the skipper. I don't think the line of gross negligence was crossed.

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Old 24-06-2010, 08:37   #152
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Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
Sorry folks but if anyone built a boat that was "idiot proof" from overpowering it would not be fun to sail, as the performance would be dismal. I have no relationship with FP in any way, but I think it inappropriate that people are questioning the design when there are so many operator-error indications in the story. I don't want to pick on Yeloya, as I make my share of mistakes, but let's "keep it real".

This incident as described, sounded like a series of misjudgments on the part of the skipper, or to be generous -- lack of preparedness or appropriate response to unexpected conditions. Any type of vehicle or vessel is only as safe as the skills and judgment of its operator.

I re-read Yeloya's original post and I suspect it did not happen precisely as he wrote it. For one thing, he starts by describing the following: "25-27 knts just at 90 degree (apparent) on my starboard, boat speed on water 10,5-10,7 knots, almost flat water (2 max 3 ft swells from the wind direction) no reef and everything seems to be under conrol with the exception of the rudder that is pulling strongly towards the wind." Then later he writes: "remember almost flat water, the true wind not exceeding 25 knots and from behind, boat speed around 11 knots." It is not possible for both things to be true, and I get the impression his report is imprecise, at best. This is a major discrepancy, and the difference between apparent and true wind with a boat speed above 10 knots is huge.

""25-27 knts just at 90 degree (apparent)" with no reef is a huge misjudgment in any boat I've ever sailed. Most boats are designed to be fully-powered up (able to reach "hull speed") in 10-15 apparent, on a reach. He should have had a reef in the main at that apparent wind speed, and eased the main if he was feeling strong weather helm; so he was over-sheeted and overpowered with clear indications. All it would take is a gust at that point to create a critical situation and apparently that happened. Predictable. (Multihulls should reef for the gusts).

His sail imbalance overpowered the rudders and forced a round-up in the gust -- further increasing apparent wind. If he was doing around 11 knots as stated, and rounded up -- his "25-27 knots" apparent wind jumped to 35+ apparent. With full main and genoa that should put the boat at risk.

Sorry folks, but let's focus on seamanship as the key element of safety. Accidents can happen to anyone, and when it comes to wind we can't always anticipate gusts so we need to allow some margin for error. STUFF HAPPENS if you operate a cruising boat like a racing boat and sail it (poorly) to the edge of it's limits. (Just trying to be objective with no personal attack intended.)

PS - When the wind forced the rounding-up, the weight aloft combined with centrifugal force further added to wind pressure to lift the windward hull in creating a capsize risk. This episode would have been somewhat predictable. We should learn from it.
Did you mean that there isn't bad cat but only bad skippers ?
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Old 24-06-2010, 08:46   #153
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Originally Posted by Catwarrior View Post
Did you mean that there isn't bad cat but only bad skippers ?
Oh, there are bad cats.
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Old 24-06-2010, 09:00   #154
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If this thread was a catamaran, it would have flipped by now!

On second thought, with GordMay's "Bad Cat", I think it just did!

Fair Winds,
Mike
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Old 24-06-2010, 09:07   #155
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One more thing we all should consider -- that racers who operate on the edge do it with full crew. That means they have someone constantly manning and trimming each sheet, watching sail trim and wind indications. Cruisers are usually short-handed or have guests as crew, and 99% of the time the boat is on autopilot, and sheets are cleated or wrapped on self-tailing winches.

Big difference.
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Old 24-06-2010, 10:22   #156
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From what I can see on the FP Lipari pages, they have done the classic charter design that puts most of the winches and rope clutches right at the helm station. That's a good/bad thing as it makes it "easy" for single-handing/helmsperson control, but a bit difficult for someone else to help out in a gust that results in flying a hull. (It's definitely not a plus IMO).

Yeloya, where is the traveler control?

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Old 24-06-2010, 14:26   #157
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Sorry folks, but let's focus on seamanship as the key element of safety. Accidents can happen to anyone, and when it comes to wind we can't always anticipate gusts so we need to allow some margin for error. STUFF HAPPENS if you operate a cruising boat like a racing boat and sail it (poorly) to the edge of it's limits. (Just trying to be objective with no personal attack intended.)

Hi Sailtrifast,

You are saying that you re-read my posts several times, but seems that you didn't quite understand the point. I take the blame for my poor english. If you are in 8-9 beaufort, outrageous sea state, yr margin of error is close to nil. I have been up to 52 knots with a cat, there was nothing scary. The boat behaved beatifully, we were vigilant at all time and that's it. If you are at 35-40 kts, then you can not leave the helm station at any moment and again you need to be very careful. If instead it blows 20-25 kts in a flat water, "ocean going, extremely seaworthy boat" as they call, should tolerate more stupidity..eg. having full sail hoisted.

The term often referred to being "overpowered" is a relative term. It widely depends on the boat on yr personal experience to deal with. I have been several times in overpowered cats and the moment I felt uncomfortable I've put the reef. It's not very complicated I can make it even at dark and on my own or with very little help. (One should of course argue that I should have put even before I felt overpowered.) The Lipari was not overpowered at all, until I found that the rudder wasn't in full control. Rudder stalling shouldn't have happened at this speed and was trying to understand what was going on when the sudden turn and hull lift has happened.

All the vinches and cleats, including the main sail traveller in Lipari are just at helm station like the Orana. I could have easily released the cleat of traveller, if I felt owerpovered.

"Quote"
If he was doing around 11 knots as stated, and rounded up -- his "25-27 knots" apparent wind jumped to 35+ apparent. With full main and genoa that should put the boat at risk.
"Unquote"

And this is not true sir.. for couple of reasons; firstly because as soon as you start turning towards the wind, the speed of the boat must have gone down, hence, reducing the apparent wind. Secondly, the forces that lifted the boat (centrifugal force of the sudden turn + the wind pushing the sail) again must have gone down vey rapidly, simply because the angle of attack of the wind was significantly reduced by this turn. That's why the boats cannot go strait to the wind..
I already made the calculation, under these conditions you can no way reach 35 kn app. The theoritical max is 32 kn in a point in time during the turn and this should be for a fraction of a second. That's actually why and how the boat recovered from rolling over. If what you said was true, then I should have been turned down long ago...

So let's rephrase my initial simple question:

SHOULD A 40 FT CRUİSİNG CATAMARAN WİTH AN IDIOT AT THE HELM, LİFT A HULL İN MAX 30 KTS OF APPARENT WİND, WİTH FULL SAILS UP IN 2-3 FT OF SWELLS ?

If anybody would like further discuss my seamanship capabilities, he's welcome but we might then miss the point.
If anybody would like to reef at 10-15 kts, this is also fine but I won't. If one day I feel that I have to, then I prefer staying in the port or go for another boat.

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 24-06-2010, 14:33   #158
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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
SHOULD A 40 FT CRUİSİNG CATAMARAN WİTH AN IDIOT AT THE HELM, LİFT A HULL İN MAX 30 KTS OF APPARENT WİND, WİTH FULL SAILS UP IN 2-3 FT OF SWELLS ?
As I mentioned some pages ago, I don't think you're an idiot at all; quite the opposite, in fact. To directly and unequivocally respond to your question:

"NO"

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Old 24-06-2010, 15:16   #159
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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
snip ; firstly because as soon as you start turning towards the wind, the speed of the boat must have gone down, hence, reducing the apparent wind. Secondly, the forces that lifted the boat (centrifugal force of the sudden turn + the wind pushing the sail) again must have gone down vey rapidly, simply because the angle of attack of the wind was significantly reduced by this turn. That's why the boats cannot go strait to the wind.. snip
Cheers

Yeloya
Yes the speed of the boat goes down through the water, but not before apparent wind goes up by a significant amount.

The centrifugal forces that helped lift the windward hull went way up before they went down.

I wasn't there but I'd bet money that if you had a video of the event it would show that your hull lifted during or immediately after your turn to windward.
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Old 24-06-2010, 15:36   #160
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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post

SHOULD A 40 FT CRUİSİNG CATAMARAN WİTH AN IDIOT AT THE HELM, LİFT A HULL İN MAX 30 KTS OF APPARENT WİND, WİTH FULL SAILS UP IN 2-3 FT OF SWELLS ?

Yeloya
That is a good question yeloya. But it doesn't have one answer. It really depends what one wants from a cruising cat. It is a question of design really. If a cat is to sail near wind speed in 15 knots of wind with full sail up, it will be dramatically overpowered in 30 knots, especially if overtrimmed. (not saying this was the case with your cat)

A gunboat will fly the hull in about 25 knots.
My cat can fly a hull in about 20 knots of wind if pushed. But it's not for everyone!

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Old 24-06-2010, 16:44   #161
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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
SHOULD A 40 FT CRUİSİNG CATAMARAN WİTH AN IDIOT AT THE HELM, LİFT A HULL İN MAX 30 KTS OF APPARENT WİND, WİTH FULL SAILS UP IN 2-3 FT OF SWELLS ?
Now we are reaching some focus from this experience...and THIS is the question to put to the vessel designers...FP in this instance, but equally so to others now pushing the design envelope toward greater light-air performance.

It seems logically obvious (and probably a necessary conclusion) that the more sail plans adapt to extract performance out of light air, the sooner those plans are going to be over-powered as the wind increases against those full sails. Tnflakbait makes the same point, just as we did earlier in this thread.

We share Yeloya's reluctance to reef at low wind speeds, but are the designers now telling us it's time to re-think that approach? Yeloya we asked this before...what is the recommended wind speed to reef on the Lipari? If it's, say, 20kn, then Yeloya's experience is clearly NOT negligence at least in sofar as reefing is concerned...and, given that a 30kn gust out of a steady 15-20kn is not unusual and perhaps even likely, the design envelope here is pressing right up against a performance vessel where, as SailFastTri so correctly observed, it's expected there will be hands always on or near the sheets...a very big difference indeed.

We say again...we WANT performance in light air on our cruising cat. If the trend in new vessels is anything to go by, it seems there are many other buyers who share the same view. So this is a very important thread as it goes (in our view anyway) directly to the question of how prudent skippers should react to this design direction...
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Old 24-06-2010, 18:08   #162
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Alot of great advise here, If you are new to the sport I would recommend REEF the main and be liberal in reefing! do so more than what is recommended, and use the smaller working jib until you have developed a feel for the boat. Even a cruising Cat is still a high performance boat, So take your time and you and the Cat will become one, (I would never take my hands off of the main sheet in a Cat!)
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Old 24-06-2010, 19:33   #163
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Oops! wow I didn't see that there were 11 pages of posts here when I posted =/ I withdraw my earlier post as it dosen't take into account the experienced sailor factor I would venture that maybe some floatsome fouled the underparts and caused the weather helm? and the spinout?? I will say that with every problem I have gotten myself into sailing I quickly realized what I had done to get there, One such time was on a rented victory 21 out of MDR I took a few non sailors out for a quick sail, The wind came up and I discovered that there were no provisions to reef the main, so I returned to the harbor heading down the channel with the wind directly astern, I was having problems with alot of weather helm, I wanted to fly my jib to port as my main was starboard, and not having a "Crew" I had to go forward to coax the jib into position and turned the helm over to a nonsailor with instructions to maintain the heading, With the jib refusing to fly port I asked for a little starboard course and Ding! we spin out! the boat comes up pointing south 20 feet from the breakwater with west wind, Luckily the main sheet was already loose and I was forward so I was able to jump off and fend it off the rocks till it swung around then jumped back on, I dropped the main and sailed in on the jib with no damage except being TOTALLY embarrassed. What I did wrong was having really bad weather helm I took my fat butt forward and increased it, then when I asked for a starboard correction the inexperienced helmsman didn't know to let me know he was already nearly hard to starboard and cavitating the rudder. I think the jib just didn't like me. I should have just dropped the main. My fault! Happy sails to you!
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Old 25-06-2010, 08:01   #164
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You do realize where that thought process leads? Is a powered up cruising cat the type of boat you want for a newish cruising sailors? If the trend is more horsepower for the cruising cat we'll be reading about more accidents.

Honestly, I'm totally suprised the OP was able to fly a hull in 25 aws. To put that in perspective. We raced a couple weeks ago with racing sails (full main and a 155%), upwind speeds were 11~12, aws was 24~25, true wind speed was 13~17.

THAT is the wind speed the OP almost flipped his cat in, that is not much wind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D&D View Post
We say again...we WANT performance in light air on our cruising cat. If the trend in new vessels is anything to go by, it seems there are many other buyers who share the same view. So this is a very important thread as it goes (in our view anyway) directly to the question of how prudent skippers should react to this design direction...
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Old 25-06-2010, 08:38   #165
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APPLAUSE FOR EVERYONE HERE!

We have 164 entries with little digression, virtually no name calling or personal affronts, and have sliced and diced a very interesting issue with thoughtful and measured comments.

The first prize goes to Yeloya for hanging himself in the breeze by his first-person account, and then for taking little umbrage at the autopsy of his sailing skills. We need a lot more of this kind of find of courage, and we need to be a little more gentlemanly about finding fault. Remember, he could have, for the sake of saving face, traded places with the witnesses "for narrative purposes!"

Second prize comes to me for admitting I was wrong. I don't do that often. Niether does anyone else here.

Third prize goes to everyone who resisted the bait to turn this into a mono- vs multi- fued. The title line invited a few sharks but they went elsewhere.

Fourth prize to the sharks!
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