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Old 26-04-2017, 03:38   #106
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

You don't see any performance sailing cats with a solid bridgedeck forward, which should give you an indication of whether they're a performance benefit or detriment.

They're designed for extra people space; lying around etc. They add weight where you don't want it, prevent the shedding of water over the bow, extra windage, which the wind could also get under....they're only good for providing space at anchor. Excellent for a boat designed to charter.
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Old 26-04-2017, 05:34   #107
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by CbroTheDude View Post
That's a bit remote imo to make a comparison, let alone conclusions.
That would be what you call...real experience.
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Old 26-04-2017, 10:06   #108
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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That would be what you call...real experience.

About as I said something pretty remote
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Old 26-04-2017, 11:01   #109
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
You don't see any performance sailing cats with a solid bridgedeck forward, which should give you an indication of whether they're a performance benefit or detriment.

They're designed for extra people space; lying around etc. They add weight where you don't want it, prevent the shedding of water over the bow, extra windage, which the wind could also get under....they're only good for providing space at anchor. Excellent for a boat designed to charter.

Now all I'm saying is that this is innovative enough that we can't say for sure how great of a negative impact the foredeck has on the performance, both in sea crossing and speed. To be sure, we would need the exact same boat with a trampoline which we don't have. Now I'm glad that your sense of deduction tell you that the solid foredeck probably doesn't help but that doesn't quantify it, also misuses of logic as well as vague conclusion from "I experience on something vaguely similar" don't help the good mood
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Old 26-04-2017, 12:17   #110
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by CbroTheDude View Post
Now all I'm saying is that this is innovative enough that we can't say for sure how great of a negative impact the foredeck has on the performance, both in sea crossing and speed. To be sure, we would need the exact same boat with a trampoline which we don't have. Now I'm glad that your sense of deduction tell you that the solid foredeck probably doesn't help but that doesn't quantify it, also misuses of logic as well as vague conclusion from "I experience on something vaguely similar" don't help the good mood
Its not innovative. Goodness Its been round as long as modern cruising multis. I sailed Prouts with it 30 years ago, I sailed Simpsons with it 20 years ago. Like clipper bows on cats it got dropped, Why? cause it doesn't work at sea. Cause it isn't safe in heavy conditions, perfect for protected and partially protected waters, poor for open waters. Its not my sense of deduction mate - its my actual experience. Its the laws of physics.
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Old 26-04-2017, 13:10   #111
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

I agree with the concern about the solid bridge deck. Curious that in addition to the 4.5 which is built more for protected waters, the new X5 also went with what is essentially a solid bridge deck (though with no wells for water collection and wave runoff should be quick). The X5 was built as a bluewater cruiser so we'll see how all that weight up front works out.
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Old 26-04-2017, 13:44   #112
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by CbroTheDude View Post
Now all I'm saying is that this is innovative enough that we can't say for sure how great of a negative impact the foredeck has on the performance, both in sea crossing and speed. To be sure, we would need the exact same boat with a trampoline which we don't have. Now I'm glad that your sense of deduction tell you that the solid foredeck probably doesn't help but that doesn't quantify it, also misuses of logic as well as vague conclusion from "I experience on something vaguely similar" don't help the good mood

Dude, seriously. They're not new. They've been done before, they've been discussed before on design forums, in design books....this is settled.

You haven't seen it because you're new to all this and haven't done the time in reading etc. That doesn't make it 'new' or 'innovative'; it's just new to you. Multihullers who prefer sailing ability over space cringe when they see a solid foredeck.
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Old 26-04-2017, 13:45   #113
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CbroTheDude View Post
That's a bit remote imo to make a comparison, let alone conclusions.
There have been several designs with solid foredecks. It's been shown repeatedly to not be a good feature at sea. Is there any reason to believe it will suddenly be good on this boat?
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Old 26-04-2017, 14:07   #114
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by CbroTheDude View Post
Now all I'm saying is that this is innovative enough that we can't say for sure how great of a negative impact the foredeck has on the performance, both in sea crossing and speed. To be sure, we would need the exact same boat with a trampoline which we don't have. Now I'm glad that your sense of deduction tell you that the solid foredeck probably doesn't help but that doesn't quantify it, also misuses of logic as well as vague conclusion from "I experience on something vaguely similar" don't help the good mood
Several very experienced cat sailors have given their thoughts and you have dismissed their comments.

Also 2 experienced delivery captains have delivered them.

"Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?
As I said above, I just delivered a new Bali 4.5 over 1,000 NM.
I stood watch 40% of the time.
We had confused 6-10' seas south of Bermuda for more than 24 hours, with waves from 2 and 3 directions, so it was impossible not to be hit.
The solid foredeck carried tons of water at times, making us prone to fall off waves. The water swirled in the seating wells and also sloshed over the fwd hatches, leaking into the bow sections and eventually into the fwd cabins.

Not a good design for waves.
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"I don't know.. I delivered one and she seemed to sail well enough.. 1 reef in main and self tacking jib on a close reach saw us doing 10, occasionally 11kts.. for me the negatives are once the sea's got over 1 metre she began slamming going into the wind and that created a braking force when motoring or sailing.
For the price they are I was not impressed by the boat.. but as has been stated for charters it'll likely be very popular in places like the BVI's (sheltered) and the Balearics.. (little wind most of the time) they're party boats plain and simple.
"
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Old 26-04-2017, 17:59   #115
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
There have been several designs with solid foredecks. It's been shown repeatedly to not be a good feature at sea. Is there any reason to believe it will suddenly be good on this boat?
Yes the reason is the salespeople/marketing told him it would be good for rtw cruising.

Thats where the problem lies. Catana have done a clever thing and built a charter oriented cat while keeping their blue water line pure but then the sales guys get ahold of it and try and pitch it as a budget version catana world cruiser for guys that cant afford a "real" catana.
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Old 26-04-2017, 18:27   #116
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by CbroTheDude View Post
Now all I'm saying is that this is innovative enough that we can't say for sure how great of a negative impact the foredeck has on the performance, both in sea crossing and speed. To be sure, we would need the exact same boat with a trampoline which we don't have. Now I'm glad that your sense of deduction tell you that the solid foredeck probably doesn't help but that doesn't quantify it, also misuses of logic as well as vague conclusion from "I experience on something vaguely similar" don't help the good mood
The ignorance of this post is astounding. Don't bother responding, I'm already gone. Its not worth it.
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Old 26-04-2017, 21:47   #117
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by SVNeko View Post
The ignorance of this post is astounding. Don't bother responding, I'm already gone. Its not worth it.


Then don't answer in the first place
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Old 26-04-2017, 21:48   #118
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Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Its not innovative. Goodness Its been round as long as modern cruising multis. I sailed Prouts with it 30 years ago, I sailed Simpsons with it 20 years ago. Like clipper bows on cats it got dropped, Why? cause it doesn't work at sea. Cause it isn't safe in heavy conditions, perfect for protected and partially protected waters, poor for open waters. Its not my sense of deduction mate - its my actual experience. Its the laws of physics.


As I said, all super old cats with low freeboard and bridgedeck clearance and old materials. Don't tell me nothing has moved in 20 years of shipbuilding. And please stop mentioning laws of physics when you haven't even come close to quoting one relevant law.
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Old 26-04-2017, 21:51   #119
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Several very experienced cat sailors have given their thoughts and you have dismissed their comments.



Also 2 experienced delivery captains have delivered them.



"Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

As I said above, I just delivered a new Bali 4.5 over 1,000 NM.

I stood watch 40% of the time.

We had confused 6-10' seas south of Bermuda for more than 24 hours, with waves from 2 and 3 directions, so it was impossible not to be hit.

The solid foredeck carried tons of water at times, making us prone to fall off waves. The water swirled in the seating wells and also sloshed over the fwd hatches, leaking into the bow sections and eventually into the fwd cabins.



Not a good design for waves.

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"I don't know.. I delivered one and she seemed to sail well enough.. 1 reef in main and self tacking jib on a close reach saw us doing 10, occasionally 11kts.. for me the negatives are once the sea's got over 1 metre she began slamming going into the wind and that created a braking force when motoring or sailing.

For the price they are I was not impressed by the boat.. but as has been stated for charters it'll likely be very popular in places like the BVI's (sheltered) and the Balearics.. (little wind most of the time) they're party boats plain and simple.
"


I have not dismissed them, thanks for reminding and they do help quantifying, doesn't do all of it though.
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Old 26-04-2017, 21:53   #120
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Re: Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
There have been several designs with solid foredecks. It's been shown repeatedly to not be a good feature at sea. Is there any reason to believe it will suddenly be good on this boat?


Please read properly my comment before answering BS and making me say what I didn't say
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