Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

[dlymn]

Originally Posted by beiland

I think you are misinterpreting me. I am NOT suggesting that a diesel-electric drive is necessary for motorsailing. It can be just a good old diesel or even gas engine direct drive for motorsailing,....no electrics involved

Maybe this discussion should be in a thread about motorsailing rather than electric power. I can't resist a reply. the responders have made it clear that motorsailing is fine in light winds. You have agreed that it's a waste of time motor sailing when you're approaching hull speed and this is commonplace when there are strong winds. You are now arguing that it's a good idea to motorsail in gusty winds that are also strong. I don't recall getting these conditions that often. strong winds with occasional gusts, yes,but raraly strong winds with occasional light winds. Wind changes, varying winds and other inconsistencies, but rarely blowing 5 knots gusting to 20 say. If that ever happened and I already had my sails up, I probably would start the motor and maybe reduce sail area, but maybe I wouldn't. As for overnighting, I don't do it becaus I'm not that skilled and am not so moch a big risk taker. On my boat having the engine running all night would chew up all of my diesel in three days. i might do this for a single overnight, but if I had the engine running, I wouldn't lift the sails. I can cruise at 7 knots on the motor and that's fast enough (forget the save diesel with sails argument- it's trivial)

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by beiland

So you always know the appropriate amount of sail you can carry in gusty conditions, or more importantly anticipating what unusual weather might be coming? You've never found yourself reducing sail beyond those current existing conditions just as a safety measure??

I sure would like to like to know your forecaster

Perhaps a review of the capsize of 57 catamaran Anna might be informative. If I remember correctly the owner did not feel he was over canvased for the conditions he was sailing in. And then imagine if this capsize had occurred at night.

I was pretty sure it did happen at night...

I'm always getting the amount of sail wrong. That's why we capsize 1000 times a day. Or was it 1,000,000? Keep forgetting.


What this has to do with electric drives is way beyond me...

[four winds]

What the hell, I'll toss in my two cents.

On hybrid propulsion.... what interests me is an inline setup like the 30 hp kubota with the motor between the engine and trans. I have no solar and don't wish to either, and no room for a generator or a desire to have gas onboard for a Honda portable.

Most of my engine hours are charging the bank at anchor. Probably 80% at least. When traveling I sail or don't go. So using a hybrid motor section charging a bank of about 450ah to replace about 125ah daily appeals to me. Assuming this would be a relatively short run time for a good top off and reasonable fuel usage. Certainly better than my factory alt method which is impossible to accomplish this task properly.

Adding the ability to use electric propulsion for short runs is a perk here. Say, for changing anchor spots or a quick run out for a daysail.

The space needed to add this "fuax" generator and short run capability is just the extra six inches or so on the drivetrain, controller box, and new shifter/throttle setup.

Consider if the diesel acts up, like a filter maybe, then the electric can be a "get there" or "get to safe spot" backup if you're close. Another perk.

All good stuff, using little precious space on my boat. No solar jungle jim, no traditional generator.

May I'm cookoo, but it fits my needs and desires, I think.



On reducing sail and motorsailing..... strangely I did this last week for the first time. A fifty mile day hop up the coast but it wasn't a small craft advisory day when I left. Started out with full sail but by the afternoon I was reefed well to max. The last couple of hours, with the headsail at about three square feet, it was still some crazy strong forces on the rig that occilated with the gusts. The velocity differential on the gusts was larger than I have seen before and bothered me for my rigs sake.

When I went to main only (a blownout scrappy rag) my speed dropped below six knots for the first time all day. So I motorsailed!.., first time in years. Got there when I needed to but the swell was on the beam and waves crashed amidships and splashed water on me. .... lol.... what's up with that! Gettin' wet is for beach cats, not coastal loligagers pretending to be real cruisers.

Fun day on the water.

[transmitterdan]

The only way to have "short" battery recharge times is to use Lithium based batteries. All lead-acid batteries take a long time to recharge to 100% no matter how big the charge source. This is just the nature of lead-acid batteries.

Some types have slightly shorter (e.g. AGM) profiles but all lead-acid batteries have a long tail in the charge profile from 80-100%. And if you don't get to 100% every few days the life of the bank will be greatly reduced.

[four winds]

By relatively short run time it is intended to mean being able to charge at a current rate that equals acceptance of the bank and sustain that flow. Relative to the factory alt(heats up and throttles)it is assumed to be less run time for state of charge acheived.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Redreuben

Dan, days and days would be an issue, but consider you can't refill diesel tanks at sea but you can top up batteries, further I think occasions where you have to refill and go would be rare. Overnight from empty would have to be a goal at least.

Reality is somewhere in the middle.

Generally, you don't need to charge the batteries in 5-10minutes but if you are plugged in overnight, they should be fully charged in the morning.

Recharging at sea is only possible by technicality. Yes, solar panels can charge the batteries but on the scale we are talking about for propulsion, it's so little as to be irrelevant unless you are talking a large generator which still needs diesel.

[BigBeakie]

Been away for a couple of weeks but saw some responses here that I thought could warrant a reply.

There have been comments that my mention of a good EP system being able to approach 7 knots of cruising speed using 7kW of power is "plainly ridiculous" (Post 202) for a 45' light displacement cruising cat.

Well I'm looking at the figures from OceanVolt (since it's an OceanVolt thread) for an Oram 44C. 44' Cruising Cat said in post #151 "7 knots at 7 kW would need a VERY light and efficient cat. I'd estimate we need around 12 kW to do 7 knots. The figures from OceanVolt's algorithm are as follows;
6.1 knot using 4.2kW and 7.2 knots using 7.7kW. And that was using a DWL of 13meters, not 13.5meters. Longer would use less Kw to achieve the same speed.

As posts pointing out that EP systems have been "ripped out" and replaced with diesels, I have no doubt that this is true, for some EP vendors. But this started as an OceanVolt thread, and OceanVolt have never had their system on any boat taken out and replaced with diesels. They have had many diesels "ripped out" and replaced with OceanVolt EP however.

Attempting to damn all EP because of some deficient systems (some happen to end in the word ------Volt) is naive skepticism IMO. Let's deal with the facts.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Been away for a couple of weeks but saw some responses here that I thought could warrant a reply.

There have been comments that my mention of a good EP system being able to approach 7 knots of cruising speed using 7kW of power is "plainly ridiculous" (Post 202) for a 45' light displacement cruising cat.

Well I'm looking at the figures from OceanVolt (since it's an OceanVolt thread) for an Oram 44C. 44' Cruising Cat said in post #151 "7 knots at 7 kW would need a VERY light and efficient cat. I'd estimate we need around 12 kW to do 7 knots. The figures from OceanVolt's algorithm are as follows;
6.1 knot using 4.2kW and 7.2 knots using 7.7kW. And that was using a DWL of 13meters, not 13.5meters. Longer would use less Kw to achieve the same speed.

As posts pointing out that EP systems have been "ripped out" and replaced with diesels, I have no doubt that this is true, for some EP vendors. But this started as an OceanVolt thread, and OceanVolt have never had their system on any boat taken out and replaced with diesels. They have had many diesels "ripped out" and replaced with OceanVolt EP however.

Attempting to damn all EP because of some deficient systems (some happen to end in the word ------Volt) is naive skepticism IMO. Let's deal with the facts.

If we are only dealing with facts, crazy projections from oceanvolt's marketing department need to be thrown out.

If they were really providing that kind of performance, we wouldn't be debating the issue. All the manufacturers would be converting over to oceanvolt drivetrains.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If we are only dealing with facts, crazy projections from oceanvolt's marketing department need to be thrown out.

If they were really providing that kind of performance, we wouldn't be debating the issue. All the manufacturers would be converting over to oceanvolt drivetrains.

So what facts are you providing Valhalla? You've got lot's of opinions, but where is you're data? What evidence do you have that this specific claim of OceanVolt performance is false? Or are we just supposed to believe you?

For my part, I have been on a couple of boats with OceanVolt installed, talked to the owners and seen the numbers and how closely the projection was matched by the actual performance. I have also talked to other owners about their experience, every one positive, by the way, before I decided to use OceanVolt.

And OceanVolt somehow seem to have been able to hoodwink multihull designers like Jeff Schionning, Greg Young, Nathan Stanton, Tony Grainger and a bunch of builders with their lies and deception. Isn't that amazing? You would think designers would have some critical thinking skills about something like a propulsion system, wouldn't you?

Before you call a vendor a liar, a reasonable person would marshall some supporting evidence, so I'm calling you on this. Ante up and give us your data that supports your claim that OceanVolt's projections are "crazy". By "crazy", I assume you mean very wrong?

They have a track record of many successful installations, and you can verify that for yourself, if you choose to. Or you can present your data on contrary evidence. Show us the cases where OceanVolt's projections have been wrong and/or cases where actual installations have been "ripped out and replaced with diesels".

As they say, put up or shut up.

[Cap Erict3]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

...........

Before you call a vendor a liar, a reasonable person would marshall some supporting evidence, so I'm calling you on this. Ante up and give us your data that supports your claim that OceanVolt's projections are "crazy". By "crazy", I assume you mean very wrong?



They have a track record of many successful installations, and you can verify that for yourself, if you choose to. Or you can present your data on contrary evidence. Show us the cases where OceanVolt's projections have been wrong and/or cases where actual installations have been "ripped out and replaced with diesels".



As they say, put up or shut up.

Do you have links to statements made by "owners" of EP vessels to go along with the vendors claims?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

So what facts are you providing Valhalla? You've got lot's of opinions, but where is you're data? What evidence do you have that this specific claim of OceanVolt performance is false? Or are we just supposed to believe you?

For my part, I have been on a couple of boats with OceanVolt installed, talked to the owners and seen the numbers and how closely the projection was matched by the actual performance. I have also talked to other owners about their experience, every one positive, by the way, before I decided to use OceanVolt.

And OceanVolt somehow seem to have been able to hoodwink multihull designers like Jeff Schionning, Greg Young, Nathan Stanton, Tony Grainger and a bunch of builders with their lies and deception. Isn't that amazing? You would think designers would have some critical thinking skills about something like a propulsion system, wouldn't you?

Before you call a vendor a liar, a reasonable person would marshall some supporting evidence, so I'm calling you on this. Ante up and give us your data that supports your claim that OceanVolt's projections are "crazy". By "crazy", I assume you mean very wrong?

They have a track record of many successful installations, and you can verify that for yourself, if you choose to. Or you can present your data on contrary evidence. Show us the cases where OceanVolt's projections have been wrong and/or cases where actual installations have been "ripped out and replaced with diesels".

As they say, put up or shut up.

Feel free to read my prior posts and those of others on this thread. We've run thru the math and other than marketing material that dances around the facts, if it was really happening, we would see clear unbiased results published and you wouldn't be seeing new diesel powered boats being produced.

If 10hp were enough to keep these boats doing 7kts, you'd see them outfitted with a pair 5hp diesels as standard...yet, the typical boat comes from the manufacturer with 30-50hp diesels.

[transmitterdan]

Anyone able to propel a LWL 40+ foot cruising catamaran of any displacement at 7 knots using only 7.7kW (10hp) should have plenty of reporters begging to write about it. Point us to some independent reporting we can read. There should be lots of it.

[BigBeakie]

Yes, I could not agree with you more, that there should be owners posting their own experiences here on this and other forums.

But what would happen if that were to occur? Would they be accused by some here who believe it "doesn't/can't/won't work" of "fudging the figures", of "not testing properly", or some other dodge???

If you read the one-eyed posts on this forum from the naive skeptics, you'll
realise that there is a powerful incentive to NOT get involved. I have been told that EP owners are actively avoiding participating. When I have my boat launched, I have made a promise to publish the data, warts and all. That I will do, and I'll make sure the testing is done as well as it can be.

In the meantime, awhile ago I did post a link that showed 2 identical 45' cats from a charter company in a tug of war that showed 2x 10kW OceanVolt's towing 2x 29HP (22kW) diesels at maximum power to demonstrate the superior thrust of electric motors. Here is the link again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lDTkQ9BQy0

The discussion following that post was indicative of the anti EP agenda. The salient point of that video was that the force of the diesel boat could have been wind or current and because EP has better torque, it pushes against forces better than diesels with twice the Kw. But all we got was comments that tug of wars are irrelevant, and there must have been a current in favour of the OceanVolts, and other nonsense.

No wonder there are sailors who are reluctant to get involved here.

As to why marine journalists are not writing it up, I dunno, go ask Nigel Calder. I think he was invited to Finland to see for himself.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Yes, I could not agree with you more, that there should be owners posting their own experiences here on this and other forums.

But what would happen if that were to occur? Would they be accused by some here who believe it "doesn't/can't/won't work" of "fudging the figures", of "not testing properly", or some other dodge???

If you read the one-eyed posts on this forum from the naive skeptics, you'll
realise that there is a powerful incentive to NOT get involved. I have been told that EP owners are actively avoiding participating. When I have my boat launched, I have made a promise to publish the data, warts and all. That I will do, and I'll make sure the testing is done as well as it can be.

In the meantime, awhile ago I did post a link that showed 2 identical 45' cats from a charter company in a tug of war that showed 2x 10kW OceanVolt's towing 2x 29HP (22kW) diesels at maximum power to demonstrate the superior thrust of electric motors. Here is the link again

The discussion following that post was indicative of the anti EP agenda. The salient point of that video was that the force of the diesel boat could have been wind or current and because EP has better torque, it pushes against forces better than diesels with twice the Kw. But all we got was comments that tug of wars are irrelevant, and there must have been a current in favour of the OceanVolts, and other nonsense.

No wonder there are sailors who are reluctant to get involved here.

As to why marine journalists are not writing it up, I dunno, go ask Nigel Calder. I think he was invited to Finland to see for himself.

That's it, we're all just haters and electric HP is magic.

[transmitterdan]

Writers for magazines targeting boaters, cruisers and other boat lovers are anxious to find new topics to write about. It does not require owners to do any "free marketing" in this industry. All it takes is a few phone calls to free lance or staff writers of any boating magazine or well read web site. Writers will be crawling across broken glass to be the first to write 1,500 words about a 40 foot cruising cat powered by a 15hp generator and a couple of 5hp electric motors. They'll jump at the chance to take one out for a spin and write all about it. In today's world there is a great thirst for greener solutions. If it actually works as you say then it will be easy to get independent publications to write about it.