Nylon vs Polyester

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

If US based:

USA

Gleistein Ropes Inc.
Stephen Michael LoPiano
Mobile: +1 360 255 3667
Email: sales-us@gleistein.com

I did contact Gleistein. They don't stock polyester brait/plait in the USA.

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

That certain anchor maker's Web site lays out a clear argument for polyester over nylon, though it seems to all be pure speculation. I wonder why then every major US rope manufacturer's Web site recommends nylon? I wonder why then every major book on anchoring and seamanship I own (I have a big library) recommends nylon, and in most cases 3-strand?

Do be aware that certain anchor maker uses Steve D as one of their major references, and Steve D loves 'the next new thing' and a few years ago was one of the prime pushers of the anti-nylon thought, althought as I mentionned several posts above, his own actual answer is all chain for the anchor and spectra for the series drogue.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Steve D's current boat and even his previous boat are so far out of the mainstream that I don't consider many of his ideas to be "real life."

Such is the way with cruising gurus. You can choose between the Lynn and Larry Pardey, who scoot around on a tiny wooden boat without an engine, or Steve Dashew, who scoots around on an enormous aluminum boat without sails. Either camp seems increasingly irrelevant to the cruiser in a mid-size fiberglass auxiliary sailboat.

[Dockhead]

We've heard a lot about octoplait (anchorplait) versus three-strand anchor line. But what about "double braid"? Double braid nylon seems to be a fraction of the cost of other variants.

I recognize the superiority of polyester, but I am shopping for new warps not for my main bower anchor, but for my kedge (30 meters * 16mm) and my spare bower anchor (90 meters * 16mm). Since these anchors get used once in a blue moon (never so far, in the case of my spare bower), I would prefer not to spend a ton of money on the rodes, if it is not necessary for safety -- ultimate durability will be less important due to the infrequent use of these ropes.

Anybody have any knowlege or experience with "double braid" nylon anchor line?

[Dockhead]

Here are some comments from the past:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...dage-2552.html

"Euro Cruiser
Euro Cruiser asked why not use double braid nylon which is stronger than the same diameter 3-strand or Plait. There are two good reasons:

#1 Double braid nylon stretch is significantly less than that of 3-strand and it is the stretch that we need to absorb shock loading caused by waves, surge, and wind. Otherwise we would all merely use Dacron and do away with the problematic chafe attendant with nylon caused by stretching under loads around objects. Double braid docklines look and feel good but they are not as good as 3-strand or 8-strand or 12-strand nylon due to lack of good stretching, especially when you consider that most people oversize their nylon docklines which puts significant strain on cleats, etc.

#2. Forming an eye in double braid is difficult at best to run "home" in the final steps. Forming an eye in a used weathered, salty, stretched double braid is all but impossible and, therefore, renders many lines useless once an eye is damaged. Such problems are not as significant in Dacron double braid because the eye can last the life of the line due to Dacron's ability to not stretch much. "

So double-braid stretches less, and is 50% stronger??!! But less stretch means less internal heating and the other bad things about nylon. This actually sounds good.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Anybody have any knowlege or experience with "double braid" nylon anchor line?

.
We have used double braid nylon lines - for mooring and shore ties and kedge anchor. They seem to wear less than our three strand nylon lines (which we have also used in these applications). I know the double braid is supposed to be less stretchy than the 3 strand but I can't say I can feel the difference in practice. All have been the premium New England ropes line of the type.

When new I can eye splice either type. But when old/used/stiffer I can only (neatly) eye splice the 3 strand.

[barnakiel]

As mentioned above - the differences in our choices may be primarily economical. You did not have on your side of the pond Polyester (ropes) while we had it all the way back in ... ? 70ties? (60ties?).

I am not certain the differences between the materials are so big that one should jump the ship and swap to the other (better?) product.

Who knows, maybe a 3 strand Poly is worse than a Multiplait Nylo after all ... ??? Maybe the design counts over the choice of Nylo / Poly?

!

barnie

[Kettlewell]

I think barnakiel is on the right track--the answer is a combination of materials and design can make for different characteristics in the rode. Just focusing on one aspect doesn't answer the question what is best for a particular use.

I suspect the manufacturers must have lots more data than they supply us with. Wouldn't it be interesting to see their test results as to the chafe resistance when wet between various lines, just for instance?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Wouldn't it be interesting to see their test results as to the chafe resistance when wet between various lines, just for instance?

Chain chafe resistance = 10.
Rope chafe resistance = 0.

;-)

We do not know the results they got, but we know that for any rope to score 1 the only solution is ... to use some sort of logarithmic scale ...

b.

[Kettlewell]

Barnie, yes chain is good stuff in coral waters. Here on the East Coast of the USA most anchorages have a nice mud bottom and we don't worry too much about chafe on the bottom. The main place where chafe is a factor is where it contacts the boat before going over the side. I have always used long lengths of plastic tubing, which I understand is now frowned upon due to overheating issues, and find that it totally eliminates this chafe at the boat end. In any case, more chafe resistance is nice to have.

[ka4wja]

Kettlewell,
Hopefully I can add one more piece of data....but I won't argue which is better....

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

--still interested to hear from anyone who is actually using polyester for anchor lines and what specific product they use and what their experiences have been.

In any case, I'm sticking to nylon until I hear some convincing arguments and real-life examples otherwise. Plus, I don't see any manufacturer's of rope recommending polyester for anchor rodes.

I have a 500' length of 3/4" dia double-braided line, nylon inner-braid with a polyester outer-braid, which I purchased with my 16' Fiorentino offshore sea anchor and their drogue....and which I have in a bag (in my lazarette) at the ready for deployment as:
a) My hurricane anchor rode, for my BIG 69 lb. Fortress FX-125 (together with 2 paralle lengths of chain)....
b) My sea anchor rode....
c) My Fiorentino drogue deployment rode....

From Fiorentino's website Sea Anchor Video Clips & Sea Anchor Rigging Illustrations

Perfect for boaters who desire a separate para-anchor line from their ground anchor, Fiorentino’s double braid deployment rode is specifically designed with a Dacron sleeve over a nylon core. Dacron, a superior material for chafe protection, enables the protected nylon core to maintain its original tensile strength and much needed shock absorbency far longer than unprotected ropes. The Dacron/ nylon mix also is resistant to twisting and heat generation during load and unload cycles. Fiorentino Deployment Rode is constructed from Type 6-6 yarn U.S. Military Specification MIL-R-24050-D. Includes high-quality served stainless steel thimble and a heavy duty stainless shackle. 15' Safety Whipping and StormRap™ Protection included FREE when placing a minimum order of 300'. Manufactured
in the U.S.A. Click here for sizing information.

I'm not sure who manufactures this line (Yale, Samson, New England, etc.????) but, an inquiry to Fiorentino should get you more specifics....


To be clear, this is not my primary anchor rode (I have 300' of G43 chain w/ 75' of 3/4" 3-strand nylon at the bitter end, and a 90lb Delta at the business end, for my primary), nor my secondary anchor rode (for my 44lb Bruce secondary, I have 75' of G43 chain w/ 300' of 3/4" 3-strand nylon), and further, as with many others with big sea anchors (or hurricane anchors), I have never used this.......
While it is possible that the unique construction of this rode (poly-braid over nylon-braid), is not necessary for the application I purchased it for, I didn't mind spending a few extra $$ for something used in extreme conditions....but, for my primary (daily) anchoring, I use chain....



Again, I don't have any real-world-use stories to relate to you about this unique rode, but I can refer you to Fiorentino for such....



Good luck and Fair winds....
John
s/v Annie Laurie

[Kettlewell]

John: Thanks for that--I have talked to Fiorentino about their recommended rode and it does sound like nice stuff. By the way, I have used a Paratech sea anchor in an offshore Force 9 on a cat when I lost my steering cables. We ended up with 400 feet of 1/2 inch three-strand out before the end of it and we experience no problem with the rodes themselves, but I had them attached at the boat end with a hefty double-braided nylon bridle. No swivel in the line either and we didn't experience any hockling, etc. You could definitely feel the give in that much nylon with that much strain--sort of like bungie jumping. At the time we appreciated the give in the system as we were taking breaking seas right over the boat and the strains were pretty big.

[CarlF]

Yale Cordage makes two interesting ropes. One is Polydyne - a poly over nylon. I assume the Florentino is similiar. It's often used as mooring pennants but you can buy it for anchor rodes. Not cheap.

Polydyne \ High Strength Double Braided Rope | Yale Cordage

The second is Lugger Line - a very inexpensive and lightweight poly (floats) used by commercial tow boats. It come in a "what part of 'tow-boat' don't you understand?" faded orange color. It laughs at cyclic loads. Not much stretch but can be mated with a stretchy snubber. The 3/4" has a breaking strength of over 18000lbs and costs $0.86US a foot at Hamilton Marine. Less by the reel or on sale. I keep 300ft flaked in the bilge and don't plan to use it

Lugger Line - Anchoring Rope / Mooring Rope / Specialty Rope - Pleasure Marine Ropes | Yale Cordage

Carl

[barnakiel]

BTW to all those thinking anchor, rope, chain, etc.. - have you been aware of the 'convertible' Rocna - I think I have seen one where the shank can be removed for easier storage.

Given Rocna's apparently better than average holding power and its other very desirable features, would not such a thing make a good storm anchor?

(drift, drift)

BTW I have seen a 'convertible' Spade too!

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Barnie, yes chain is good stuff in coral waters. Here on the East Coast of the USA most anchorages have a nice mud bottom and we don't worry too much about chafe on the bottom.

Unless some smart fart disposed of whatever they thought they no longer needed aboard their working craft.

The only time we nearly had our rope rode cut was ... not in coral. Baiona, Spain, 2003, all nice soft mud bottom - with a piece of fishing boat junk in it.

So, do not take it for granted the bottom is sand or mud and your rope will not get cut.

Actually, because many coral places have very clear water you might find the coral waters much less risk than the muddy waters of our rivers and harbours.

b.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

BTW to all those thinking anchor, rope, chain, etc.. - have you been aware of the 'convertible' Rocna - I think I have seen one where the shank can be removed for easier storage.

Given Rocna's apparently better than average holding power and its other very desirable features, would not such a thing make a good storm anchor?

(drift, drift)

BTW I have seen a 'convertible' Spade too!

b.

I agree with those who say your main bower anchor and your storm anchor should be one and the same.