No room for negotiation?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Seymore

Ask your bank.

You and your surveyor are exposed to tables of prices inflated by brokers. Indeed, an experienced surveyor will not give a price in his survey.

A surveyor that doesn’t give his opinion of price or value would be out of work as that is a major part of his job, both for your benefit and the insurance companies.
We have sold quite a few cats and all sold close to asking price and reasonably fast. An offer of 65% wouldn’t warrant a reply from me.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by anotherview

The Seller

I am sure you understand that you will pay more buying a broker listed vessel because the seller has to pay a 10% commission.

Simply not true. Market value does not change because of the seller's expenses. A boat is worth what it's worth. What the seller makes or loses in the transaction is irrelevant.

[SimonV]

Sitting here in Croatia on my new old mono, I have met a couple of cat buyers, they are struggling to find a good boat as the owners aren’t in a rush to sell, due mainly to a fact the waiting list for a new cat is three to four years and growing. Charter buyers are getting first dibs as they tend to be repeat customers and are putting in their orders in for a five year turnaround. The demand from the Caribbean has drained the market. Charter companies are holding on to the older boats and keeping older boats in higher charter categories. Where a class “A” boat was no more than one to two seasons (depends on location) old. Now they will be getting a better return for the owner. Look at the for sale list for ex charter very little left for availability till October 2019..

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by DockDoc

As a potential buyer, another frustrating thing has been seeing boats, that I assumed were correctly priced, out of my range by 20% or more of max budget and not offering an 'insulting' lowball.
I pass not wanting to throw something out there that will just cause the seller to sneer down their nose at me hissing between clenched teeth "Clearly you have no idea what this magnificent piece of floating splendor is worth good sir! My life, my love, my very soulmate who saw me through thick and thin, how dare you insult her pristine countenance with such a despicable offer!!" Only to find out later the boat sold for 30k under what was the upper limit of my budget.


I have no problem paying full asking price as long as you're asking for what I am offering! Again as my wise Portuguese mother would say "it's only worth what someone is willing to pay" The most common wording on any yachtworld add other than "better than new" is "Price recently reduced".
My money sits in a short term investment making 2.45%. That's $2750 every 90 days. I don't need a boat, I can wait at least another two to four years if nothing works out this year.

Again I appreciate all the advice, opinions, debate, and viewpoints. Cheers!

Meanwhile, I’m on the other side of your dilemma in the sense that I have a boat for sale at the top end of your budget, built by a top builder that’s ready to cruise near Croatia. If We don’t get an acceptable offer within the next five weeks by a qualified buyer... we’ll keep the boat and spend the next 15 years enjoying the Mediterranean May-October and the Caribbean November-April making lasting friendships and memories.

And.... you won’t have a boat because you prefer to play games. How much is 90 days of warm weather, sunshine and lasting memories worth to you? $2750?

Three points I’m trying to make: Life is short, situations and markets change, and not every seller is desperate to sell.

[ranchero76]

Very few "desperate sailors" have this kind of money. For anyone else - there are hundreds of other fun activities in life, sailing - just one of them.
Boat - is probably worst possible asset to have due to many different reasons.
And by far not everyone is ready for sailing adventure on ANY boat.
For example - I might be interested in sailing ONLY on certain boat, with certain features, and NOT at any price. Otherwise - no thanks, I'll find other things to do. In fact, I can travel the World and have all kinds of fun for the next 10-15 years as alternative to buying the boat.

Not desperate to sell? Not interested in ANY offers except full price? Unless it's priced very low (in this case boat sells BEFORE listing is seen by general public on websites, and such cases are out of this discussion anyway) this screams "IDIOT BUYER WITH DEEP POCKETS WANTED!!!". Well, some of such sellers might even get lucky. One per hundred. Others - not so much. I see some catamarans sitting on the market for 5 and more years! I guess, these sellers no desperate to sell at all LOL. No, I'm not watching them for 5 years, I just know how to use Internet search

Catamaran market might be a bit unbalanced right now, for two reasons - they became very popular in last few years, and second reason - Irma. BUT. Catamarans being manufactured in crazy quantities, manufacturers maximize profit while they can, so market will be filled in the next year or two.
So I repeat my advice to buyers - don't get emotional. Make offers you're absolutely comfortable with.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Very few "desperate sailors" have this kind of money. For anyone else - there are hundreds of other fun activities in life, sailing - just one of them.
Boat - is probably worst possible asset to have due to many different reasons.
And by far not everyone is ready for sailing adventure on ANY boat.
For example - I might be interested in sailing ONLY on certain boat, with certain features, and NOT at any price. Otherwise - no thanks, I'll find other things to do. In fact, I can travel the World and have all kinds of fun for the next 10-15 years as alternative to buying the boat.

Not desperate to sell? Not interested in ANY offers except full price? Unless it's priced very low (in this case boat sells BEFORE listing is seen by general public on websites, and such cases are out of this discussion anyway) this screams "IDIOT BUYER WITH DEEP POCKETS WANTED!!!". Well, some of such sellers might even get lucky. One per hundred. Others - not so much. I see some catamarans sitting on the market for 5 and more years! I guess, these sellers no desperate to sell at all LOL. No, I'm not watching them for 5 years, I just know how to use Internet search

Catamaran market might be a bit unbalanced right now, for two reasons - they became very popular in last few years, and second reason - Irma. BUT. Catamarans being manufactured in crazy quantities, manufacturers maximize profit while they can, so market will be filled in the next year or two.
So I repeat my advice to buyers - don't get emotional. Make offers you're absolutely comfortable with.

Funny, thank you.

If I want to sell one day, I will double the asking price to give you a chance to bid 65%, and we both will be happy.

Usually as a seller you offer the lowest acceptable price for a quick sale. Given this I would not even respond on a offer 35% below, and I am pretty sure, The boat will sell within a week.

How I know? Well I was offering the asking price and someone else has offered 10% more plus paying immediately the deposit on a Lagoon cat, even before I could negotiate the pre-conditions and arange a visit. The vessel was online only 5 days.

The demand for catamarans is high and the prices are paid nowadays. It is different for monohulls, they not sell very well.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Well I guess we do live in a different world. A world where Sailorboy, I and others currently own boats we went through the process of purchasing, as opposed to the world where one is out trying to figure out how to purchase a boat and "playing games" during the process and possibly loosing out on some very good deals and cruising time during the process. I went through the same learning curve during the purchase of our Hunter, loosing out on several Catalina sailboats during the learning game.

Yes you're right, we live in a different world.

Wow you have a thing for saying people are playing games - I actually own and sail a boat and did not pay the asking price for it along with many other boat owners in this thread who did not pay the full whack as well.


But hey knock yourself out and pay the full monty and feel good that you have not "Played Games" FYI I have a boat for sale its a 34' Mono - Price is $450,000 - I'll send you the details if you are interested

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Funny, thank you.

If I want to sell one day, I will double the asking price to give you a chance to bid 65%, and we both will be happy.

Anyone with at least some brains can check real market prices, including sold prices in recent years (not BS "market research" provided by brokers barely graduated from high school).
So you can ask anything you want - boat is worth exactly as much as someone WILLING to pay for it. Not a single cent more.

You found the boat which was sold in 5 days? Great, that means it was priced right. Like I said - such boats usually appear on YW with remark "under offer" already. I don't think OP made offers on such boats.

Any boat which was sold within 6 months was priced more or less correctly.

Any boat sitting on the market for years - either seller has brain injury or he isn't really selling boat -->>>>he IS playing games. Are there many of such boats on the market? Most of them - at least in category which I'm monitoring in particular.

[Suijin]

I think it is worth pointing out that brokers have a strong incentive to price boats appropriate to the market.

Selling a boat is a lot of work. Talk to any broker and you’ll hear horror stories about tire kickers and the like. If a boat is not priced fairly all that happens 90% of the time is the broker is saddled with inquires and showings that go nowhere.

Price the boat right, sell it with a reasonable investment in time, move on to the next boat.

Almost 100% of the time an overpriced boat is the result of an owner with unrealistic expectations about the value of their boat who insists on a certain asking price.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by UFO

Wow you have a thing for saying people are playing games - I actually own and sail a boat and did not pay the asking price for it along with many other boat owners in this thread who did not pay the full whack as well.


But hey knock yourself out and pay the full monty and feel good that you have not "Played Games" FYI I have a boat for sale its a 34' Mono - Price is $450,000 - I'll send you the details if you are interested

Yeah.. But we are talking Real Boats.. Not half boats..

[hellosailor]

"Incidentally, an ethical professional broker MUST carry EVERY offer to the seller, no matter what it is."
I keep seeing comments like that and wonder, what planet are you guys from? Because in the US, we've got 62 different "state" venues, and while I don't know the laws of most of them, I do know that if the seller tells the world's most professional broker "Hey, I want a hundred grand, not a penny less, don't even bother me at 99,999, OK?" then the broker in fact has exactly the opposite: He has an obligation NOT to bother the seller with that lower offer.
Some brokers are stupid, malicious, or delusional. As are some sellers. Never say never.

All that you can be sure of, is that when a boat has been on the market for "too long" there is OR WAS something wrong with that picture. And quite likely still is the case.

If I'm simply charging you storage fees until the boat is sold, and I can convince you to hold out for full list....now who's the fool, getting paid every month instead of clearing the boat out?

never say never.

[FLLCatsailor]

Long time since I've posted on here, and I should probably start being more active on cruisers forum again...

I'd love to answer a few of your points below:

- I ran the report based on sold boats.com, which is where brokerage sales are reported. Its only as good as the information provided by the listing broker on the deal.

- BUC doesn't actually have sales data recoreded, and from my years of doing this usually the most inaccurate source on market value.

- I believe the search criteria I ran was on boats over 35, and over $100k in value. I'm not 100% sure though at this stage what the actual search was.

- While I only talk about the 3 big builders, my % of asking price was of all manufactures and all deals. The attached reports included all sales.

Thanks for taking the time to watch!

Kind regards,
Wiley Sharp

Originally Posted by blueazimuth

The BUC book, and others, indeed publish Average of Actual Sold boat prices. Which implies these are the only Sold prices. Brokers are paid by commission. They are not required to submit all sales. Good brokers, the ethical ones, submit all sales. Bad brokers do not submit sales that they know will lower their future commissions.

Wiley, a decent man, talks about averages Sold prices. He’s talking of boats around $300k, and up, which is not representative of all Cat sales. He talks of only 3 manufacturers - not representative of the market either. He does not mention one-offs or older cats nor smaller cats. He doesn’t mention where he gets any of his information from. Nor does he say that these are All the Sold prices. He can’t, because whatever source(s)he uses, all sources are based on what brokers report.
That doesn’t mean that Wiley is a bad broker. Far from it. He says up front what he’s going to report on. His 5 minute video does not allow him to report all sales on all cats.
Unfortunately, bad brokers selectively submit sale prices.
That’s a fact of life in the brokerage business, a regrettable fact, but a fact nevertheless.

[FLLCatsailor]

I'm very curious which boat you made offers on. I would love to discuss... Something doesn't sound right here.

Kind regards,
Wiley Sharp
Wiley@Denisonyachtsales.com

Originally Posted by DockDoc

I have gone 'full retard' and started making offers on Catamarans. I have made 3 different offers on Cats each with a broker listing price of above 450k USD. My offers have all been within 92-95% of list price.

So far ever offer has been met with a "they won't take less than the list price". No counter, just a flat 'nope'.
I have purchased a few things before in my life that cost a pretty penny, and without exception, there was always the list price, and then some room for negotiation, offers, counter offers etc.

Is this just a market-driven phenomenon that is unique to Catamarans, or sailboats in general? Perhaps it's the maternal Portuguese blood in me but I just can't seem to pay the asking price for something without a good haggle!

I have decided to lick my wounds, lay low until mid-February and remount an attack.

Any advice? Am I being too stubborn, foolish, naive?

I know I will get the "buy directly from the owner" advice, but that scenario is full of emotional sellers entanglements I don't want to deal with. Been there done that, no thank you.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Simply not true. Market value does not change because of the seller's expenses. A boat is worth what it's worth. What the seller makes or loses in the transaction is irrelevant.

Simply not true.

Market value for that boat is what the boat sells for, and can absolutely be affected by the seller's bottom line, or what he had for breakfast that morning.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Simply not true.

Market value for that boat is what the boat sells for, and can absolutely be affected by the seller's bottom line, or what he had for breakfast that morning.

Market value is the most probable price that a boat should bring in a competitive & open market, based on a reasonable exposure time, with both the buyer & seller being knowledgeable. What a boat sells for is the Sale Price which can be above or below market value. Simply wanting to get more for your boat, for whatever reason, does not make it worth more and if a buyer is dumb enough to pay more for a boat because the seller spent a lot on breakfast that would increase the sale price but not the market value of the boat.

If you have 2 identical boats for sale sitting side by side at a marina and one is for sale by owner while the other is listed with a broker they are both "worth" the same amount. If you attempt to roll the Broker's commission into your list price a prospective buyer will simply buy the adjacent FSBO boat.