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Old 19-05-2015, 16:49   #121
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I think all you need is a light diagonal roll-able porch. Black mesh. Your vision would not be obscured if it was diagnonal but it would be enough to stop you scorching. see here. Screenshot by Lightshot
Thats not a porch. Certainly would not provide the sun protection needed in the tropics. If you have lived in the tropics you would understand.
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Old 19-05-2015, 17:14   #122
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Thats not a porch. Certainly would not provide the sun protection needed in the tropics. If you have lived in the tropics you would understand.
I lived in the middle east 5 years.. It's only while you are helming. There are two L shaped sofas in the cabin which is only 2 strides away.. How much more shade do you need?

When you are anchored you could set up a bigger tent I guess. There are many places that I can see that would lend themselves to little porches.

If you have much more than that porch when sailing it will become a hang glider at 15 knots and then you have an engineering challenge. A small diagonal porch will cast a surprisingly big shadow for the pilot. IMHO of course.. Hats are legal in the tropics I think also.

That porch would give you more than what you get here. Of course you could make it bigger if you wanted but kept small you could even have it slide forward and rearward over the helm by using a rail fixed on the cabin.



I think I would like to try something small first such that I described and then if no good do something more radical.

I thought it was only mad dogs and Englishmen that sit out in the mid day sun anyway.
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Old 19-05-2015, 18:07   #123
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Thats not a porch. Certainly would not provide the sun protection needed in the tropics. If you have lived in the tropics you would understand.
revision.

This is all you would need. Black mesh roller blind and 3 poles that can be easily stored.

Set it as a triangle and it does not get in the way when you step higher and the roller is pulled a on a chord an fastened off. Plenty of shade for a ozzy bloke in the tropics. Oh and it is small enough not to be 3rd sail.

Click to see Acme Harryproa sun shade. 99.99 inc post and packaging Screenshot by Lightshot
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Old 19-05-2015, 20:09   #124
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

What's with the Screen shot link. I see nothing but ads.
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Old 20-05-2015, 00:31   #125
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I lived in the middle east 5 years.. It's only while you are helming. There are two L shaped sofas in the cabin which is only 2 strides away.. How much more shade do you need?

When you are anchored you could set up a bigger tent I guess. There are many places that I can see that would lend themselves to little porches.

If you have much more than that porch when sailing it will become a hang glider at 15 knots and then you have an engineering challenge. A small diagonal porch will cast a surprisingly big shadow for the pilot. IMHO of course.. Hats are legal in the tropics I think also.

That porch would give you more than what you get here. Of course you could make it bigger if you wanted but kept small you could even have it slide forward and rearward over the helm by using a rail fixed on the cabin.



I think I would like to try something small first such that I described and then if no good do something more radical.

I thought it was only mad dogs and Englishmen that sit out in the mid day sun anyway.
The cat you show is not an ideal vessel for the tropics as many from Europe aren't. Certainly would need your autopilot not to be cooked at the helm.

At least the charter cats seem to have improved their shade thesedays. There is no doubt any vessel thats spending the majority of its time in the tropics will need something better and its always best if its not an afterthought.

It will be a challenge foor the designer to come up with a good concept. The current drawings do not in my opinion and Luk is best served to do it right first time.
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Old 20-05-2015, 02:59   #126
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Can even get sun stroke in Great Britain.

From a Dazcat/Multimarine newsletter.

"The Broadblue Rapier 550 has been doing extensive sea trials and even the odd race. We sailed her to victory in the Round the Island race, proving the novel aspects of her design work really well. Half the fleet had to retire due to light winds - or through sun stroke, as it was a super-hot day - but we did not have a problem, as the cockpit on the Rapier is inside and it proved this was no disadvantage when sailing in scorching sun and light winds. In fact, we were a little cold at times as the ventilation given by the hatch design worked incredibly well, which meant we did not even need to turn on the air con.

Philippe from Multihull World magazine joined us for the race and a full report will be published in the next issue. A great time was had by all onboard, who were made up of a variety of mono, dinghy and multihull sailors, all of whom were massively impressed with her performance and comfort. Simon ordered us a celebratory curry in Cowes, rounding off a great weekend on the Rapier, and we look forward to having another go on her soon. Thank you Jim, you have a lovely boat."
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Old 20-05-2015, 03:33   #127
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Can even get sun stroke in Great Britain.

From a Dazcat/Multimarine newsletter.

"The Broadblue Rapier 550 has been doing extensive sea trials and even the odd race. We sailed her to victory in the Round the Island race, proving the novel aspects of her design work really well. Half the fleet had to retire due to light winds - or through sun stroke, as it was a super-hot day - but we did not have a problem, as the cockpit on the Rapier is inside and it proved this was no disadvantage when sailing in scorching sun and light winds. In fact, we were a little cold at times as the ventilation given by the hatch design worked incredibly well, which meant we did not even need to turn on the air con.

Philippe from Multihull World magazine joined us for the race and a full report will be published in the next issue. A great time was had by all onboard, who were made up of a variety of mono, dinghy and multihull sailors, all of whom were massively impressed with her performance and comfort. Simon ordered us a celebratory curry in Cowes, rounding off a great weekend on the Rapier, and we look forward to having another go on her soon. Thank you Jim, you have a lovely boat."
But but but...... The harryproa does have a dedicated saloon that you can retire to and still helm from like the broadblue but the harryproa has a much bigger outside garden as well. It is a proper sailing vessel that lets you feel the wind and be outside. Many people get sunstroke in UK because we do not prepare for the sun in anyway. We expect it to rain.

Ok last offer.. 2 for 150. Will throw in two Sombrero's Deal?
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Old 20-05-2015, 03:38   #128
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by ejlindahl View Post
What's with the Screen shot link. I see nothing but ads.
Try this view instead.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

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Views:	84
Size:	250.4 KB
ID:	102389  
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Old 20-05-2015, 10:51   #129
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Unstayed masts can and do fail, so it's not a magic bullet. All of this is quite verifiable.
I think composite masts became more routine from their progress on the Freedom designs by Hoyt. And yes there were some failures, but by far not resulting in collapse. The aero industry has been paralleling these experiences with CF wing spars, and have resulted in a far wider understanding commensurate with greater reliability and improved benefits. The aero industry is about the most rigorous and well tested environment we presently have.

I think as a boats speed goes up the benefits of an unstayed cantilever mast become all the more apparent at it is akin to the experiences in the aircraft industry moving from cross wire lattice supported biplane wing structures to the monoplane. You may recall once we got there we really never looked back. Although the experimentation period was a little tedious.

If the Freedom rig did nothing else it proved the benefits of easier and safer sail handling and a capacity to reduce the impact of the safety factor due to gusts. I dont know of any other rig that competes well with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
If you goal is to have the most interesting boat in the marina, it will win hands down. But otherwise, you haven't shown it to have any signficant advantages over a catamaran.
Seems to me people were at pains to point out the weights and measures which in themselves were convincing for me. At the end of the day it will come down to the same over arching principle that applies to any boat manufacturing process, lbs of boat per $. It seems to me that this layout has these factors in its eye.
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Old 20-05-2015, 11:19   #130
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
I think composite masts became more routine from their progress on the Freedom designs by Hoyt. And yes there were some failures, but by far not resulting in collapse. The aero industry has been paralleling these experiences with CF wing spars, and have resulted in a far wider understanding commensurate with greater reliability and improved benefits. The aero industry is about the most rigorous and well tested environment we presently have.

I think as a boats speed goes up the benefits of an unstayed cantilever mast become all the more apparent at it is akin to the experiences in the aircraft industry moving from cross wire lattice supported biplane wing structures to the monoplane. You may recall once we got there we really never looked back. Although the experimentation period was a little tedious.

If the Freedom rig did nothing else it proved the benefits of easier and safer sail handling and a capacity to reduce the impact of the safety factor due to gusts. I dont know of any other rig that competes well with that.



Seems to me people were at pains to point out the weights and measures which in themselves were convincing for me. At the end of the day it will come down to the same over arching principle that applies to any boat manufacturing process, lbs of boat per $. It seems to me that this layout has these factors in its eye.
You make very good points... What you say makes a lot of sense.
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Old 20-05-2015, 11:22   #131
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

I recall now the proa Jzerro which I first saw in Wooden Boat magazine god only knows when. I remember pondering the dangers of such a plan at the time, fortune has it that none of which have prospered to HP.

I remember thinking these same things at that time, but had some issues coming up with a plan to make the sail CE lead the hull CR despite shunting until I stumbled on the thought of using a forward canting cantilever mast in a rotating bearing secured at the sponsons keel and through the deck. This would allow shunting without using keel geometry manipulation, and would likewise still work on a cat-ketch layout. Not as simple as a straight spar true, but not really an issue in composites (which werent really in my vocabulary back then).

Im sure a rather pretty profile can be made to work without a lot of effort.
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Old 20-05-2015, 13:01   #132
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
I think composite masts became more routine from their progress on the Freedom designs by Hoyt. And yes there were some failures, but by far not resulting in collapse. The aero industry has been paralleling these experiences with CF wing spars, and have resulted in a far wider understanding commensurate with greater reliability and improved benefits. The aero industry is about the most rigorous and well tested environment we presently have.

I think as a boats speed goes up the benefits of an unstayed cantilever mast become all the more apparent at it is akin to the experiences in the aircraft industry moving from cross wire lattice supported biplane wing structures to the monoplane. You may recall once we got there we really never looked back. Although the experimentation period was a little tedious.

If the Freedom rig did nothing else it proved the benefits of easier and safer sail handling and a capacity to reduce the impact of the safety factor due to gusts. I dont know of any other rig that competes well with that.
I think you are taking my comment out of context. My point was not that unstayed masts are highly prone to failure. My point was that no mast system is immune from failure. I forget who but someone was implying stayed masts fall off on a regular basis and are unreliable which is a big pant load of something.

The aerodynamic advantages of unstayed masts may make sense for racing boats where they are willing to make huge trade offs to gain the slightest increase in speed but on cruising boats the aerodynamic advantages are irrelevant.
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Old 20-05-2015, 13:14   #133
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I think you are taking my comment out of context. My point was not that unstayed masts are highly prone to failure.
in which case, you have no point, ..... which is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
My point was that no mast system is immune from failure. I forget who but someone was implying stayed masts fall off on a regular basis and are unreliable which is a big pant load of something.
unstayed masts have less points of failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
The aerodynamic advantages of unstayed masts may make sense for racing boats where they are willing to make huge trade offs to gain the slightest increase in speed but on cruising boats the aerodynamic advantages are irrelevant.
nonsense
on any boat with speed as part of its creed, unstayed masts are an advantage. Particularly since among this boats skillset it needs ease of handling, and can vent the rig by bending forces and feathering.

No one thing is exclusive, plainly these masts are a good fit
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Old 20-05-2015, 13:17   #134
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Set it as a triangle and it does not get in the way when you step higher and the roller is pulled a on a chord an fastened off. Plenty of shade for a ozzy bloke in the tropics. Oh and it is small enough not to be 3rd sail.

Click to see Acme Harryproa sun shade. 99.99 inc post and packaging Screenshot by Lightshot
I'll take two but only if you have them in the color of the upholstery :-)
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Old 20-05-2015, 13:34   #135
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Those look like stays on the fastest no expense spared boats...

So lucdekeyser, is this your HurrayProa boat they are building?

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