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Old 26-04-2015, 08:20   #61
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
No lucdekeyser, more research is required.

Try the proaforum, proafile, wooden boat, and boatdesign forums for more balanced views.
In general that is wise advice that I can appreciate. I have read most of those forums except wooden boat. So I do not feel the need for more research in that sense; I need results of research in the sense of controlled experiments. This will not happen in my lifetime, I am afraid.
Any field with a lack of systematized evidence has the void filled with eminent opinion leaders. Personal and cultural styles determine if these get along or not. Having lived in three continents I understand that bridging those differences can hardly be done through forums.
I have not been raised in any sailing tradition. So there is nothing to undo except extreme naivety. I may suffer from a case of gubernaculophilia which is the neurotic attraction to feeling the tiller hum in the hand. If there is a cure for it I don't want it;-)
So I can easily weigh the pontificates in this field and put them next to each other for evaluation using the law of physics that I do understand. I would be interested to learn what the digest is that you as experienced cruisers have made of the same literature and that I may have missed to consider. Up to now my digest has resulted in trusting the design of the HP cruiser 60 as the best fit for my SOR's. I appreciate your expertise and patience in challenging the underlying assumptions. Reality checks are very important and I'd rather find out about them now than after the build. I feel no need to defend a particular design, just to explain my reasoning for choosing one.
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Old 26-04-2015, 14:03   #62
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

The way to make a sailboat go really fast is to make it light, and have a big sail, it really isn't a secret. The way to get a big sail is to have a very tall mast. A stayed mast is going to be much taller for a given weight.
The wider the boat, the taller the mast can be.
Trimarans are the winner if cost is any consideration.

If somehow Proa's had some magic advantage, they would be common designs.

The fact is cruising boats don't actually do a lot of sailing, condomarans are very popular because accomodations and comfort are more important than sailing speed. A Cruiser spends what 80% of time anchored, it isn't a race.
Get a fast little sailboat to have fun with and store it on your condomaran.

Just my 2 cents worth, I'm building a 64ft solar powered boat and have looked into just about every possible configuration, and my current thinking is the ideal is a....monohull. But not one you've seen before.

Orma 60

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Old 26-04-2015, 19:24   #63
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

My answer to your question is unanaswerable because I lack the experience to do that with any weight. My experience is racing coastal and chartering around the world mostly in island settings. but ido remember trying to claw my way off Anacapa Island near Ventura in a Santa Ana blow. I was on a F27 and the winds were 20 knots and 10 foot seas. I was scared sheetless. Up and over the big lumpies and pitch down the backside. It was wild and very wet. How would increased length, width, and safety be on your proa? I totally get your point

It probably would be a spirited sail and mild spray...with plenty of reserve safety. That night was one of the scariest things i have ever had happen to me. Right next to being run off the track at Infineon Raceway at over 100 mph onto the dirt....that is pucker time. I am all for reserve safety..
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Old 27-04-2015, 04:21   #64
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
In general that is wise advice that I can appreciate. I have read most of those forums except wooden boat. So I do not feel the need for more research in that sense; I need results of research in the sense of controlled experiments. This will not happen in my lifetime, I am afraid.
Any field with a lack of systematized evidence has the void filled with eminent opinion leaders. Personal and cultural styles determine if these get along or not. Having lived in three continents I understand that bridging those differences can hardly be done through forums.
I have not been raised in any sailing tradition. So there is nothing to undo except extreme naivety. I may suffer from a case of gubernaculophilia which is the neurotic attraction to feeling the tiller hum in the hand. If there is a cure for it I don't want it;-)
So I can easily weigh the pontificates in this field and put them next to each other for evaluation using the law of physics that I do understand. I would be interested to learn what the digest is that you as experienced cruisers have made of the same literature and that I may have missed to consider. Up to now my digest has resulted in trusting the design of the HP cruiser 60 as the best fit for my SOR's. I appreciate your expertise and patience in challenging the underlying assumptions. Reality checks are very important and I'd rather find out about them now than after the build. I feel no need to defend a particular design, just to explain my reasoning for choosing one.
Lucdekeyser, I have contributed all I can. The internet is filled (unfortunately) with Rob repeating flawed arguments, leaving out important detail and comparing apples with oranges.

As an intelligent guy who understands physics aren't your alarm bells ringing when
Rob Compares the unstayed Visionary mast to a 44 ' cruising cat mast in his post above.

Geeze, the cats mast is a hell of a lot stiffer and can carry the sail loads including screecher luff loads and spinnaker halyard load without bending like a wet noodle.
The cat mast is aluminium and the proa mast is carbon.
But rob will continue to wheel out these apple and orange comparisons ad nauseam for the gullible to gobble up.

Robs post is filled with omissions and flawed logic.

This is Robs standard modus operandi and i haven't the energy to play the game.

Regards
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:10   #65
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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The way to make a sailboat go really fast is to make it light, and have a big sail, it really isn't a secret. ...

Trimarans are the winner if cost is any consideration.

If somehow Proa's had some magic advantage, they would be common designs.

Get a fast little sailboat to have fun with and store it on your condomaran.

Just my 2 cents worth, I'm building a 64ft solar powered boat and have looked into just about every possible configuration, and my current thinking is the ideal is a....monohull. But not one you've seen before.

...
I like design cycles spiraling down instead of up. The priorities are 1. safety 2. easy to handle n. have the wind help with propulsion within the first two constraints. Unstayed masts are safer and easier to handle and nowadays have no weight and cost of ownership penalties within speed ranges that remain comfortable. I seek further confirmation of this.

The only trimaran I could get my wife excited about is the Neel 45. Basic sail away price Euro 550K. This is I am sure for another thread.

I am not convinced of the world average opinion in boat design given that the grasp of the laws of physics of my trusted advisers are above that average.
I should quit using the term 'proa'. It jinx too many people and hinders reasoned argumentation. I should take the cue of Michel in this thread and speak instead about a boat that goes as easily backward as it goes forward and swings its keel permanently to the side where the wind comes from. The HP has the living quarters on that "keel".

I'd rather rent a condo when staying for a longer time in a port and make good time between ports with a spacious feeling, light and longer boat. I guess we are not the partying type.

If I were living in Australia I would probably give up sails altogether for a solar powered stabilized monohull, given present level of technological development. Looking forward to your build and MPPT controller.
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:15   #66
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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... but i do remember trying to claw my way off Anacapa Island near Ventura in a Santa Ana blow. I was on a F27 and the winds were 20 knots and 10 foot seas. I was scared sheetless. Up and over the big lumpies and pitch down the backside. It was wild and very wet. ...
Those would be nights that would make me forget all regrets paying for 60 foot slips while using only a square space with a side of 40 foot.
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:28   #67
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Lucdekeyser, I have contributed all I can...
As an intelligent guy who understands physics aren't your alarm bells ringing ....
But rob will continue to wheel out these apple and orange comparisons ad nauseam for the gullible to gobble up.
...
Regards
Thank you for your contribution and patience.
I consider myself sailing naive but not gullible. I could be wrong ;-)
In the IT industry Rob would be called an evangelist, generally considered a prestigious title.
But outside of that the evidence is accumulating, even if, sadly enough, not with controlled experiments:
Regarding unstayed masts designs Sponberg makes a strong case. Kelsall, Irens, Wyliecat, ... come to mind.
Regarding carbon masts I suppose Rob is close to the continuously evolving capabilities and pricing of Etamax. And Ballotta infuses its own unstayed wingmasts. The price comparison will be interesting.
A 20m proa, to be launched this summer in Portugal, is powered by two large rotating carbon wingmasts. I don't wish them sailing through a winter storm but I would be interested in the outcome.
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Old 28-04-2015, 00:47   #68
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
Try the proaforum, proafile, wooden boat, and boatdesign forums for more balanced views.

The two most experienced proa sailors are Russel Brown and Sven Stevens. Probably worth chatting to these guys if you want some balance in your research.


Joe Oster who runs the Proa website I posted earlier also posts regularly on Sailing Anachy under the sockpuppet PROASAILOR.He is another worth chatting to.
You would have more luck convincing a Scientologist that Thetans don't exist than having a rational discussion with that lot.
Russell Brown is their Guru wood and string pacific proas their Cult. Everything else is heresy.
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Old 28-04-2015, 12:34   #69
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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... Russell Brown is their Guru ...
I can appreciate people who are driven to make things of beauty. The juxtaposition of products of different schools of art provide a more interesting depth of field. All else are just words.
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:13   #70
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extending the saloon

With the design considerations abating some in this thread I have a more practical cruiser's life question. The HP Cruiser 60 provides two queen size beds on either side of the saloon in the shorter hull. Cruising as a couple one bedroom would remain essentially unused (at least as intended). It seems like a minor modification to extend the saloon to one end to include the space of one queen bed. The larger settee could easily be converted to accommodate occasional overnight guests. The disadvantage is somewhat more windage from the lengthened cabin roof and windows. Visibility from the cockpit seems also affected little.
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Old 29-04-2015, 01:38   #71
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Re: extending the saloon

Nimblemotors
Light with lots of sail is definitely fast. Length is the third main factor for speed. Tall masts are good in light air, not so good in heavy air.
Screechers, spinnakers etc are not as effective (can't be used on all points of sail) nor as easy to handle as equivalent mainsail area on an unstayed mast.
Hence the Cruiser is a ~5 ton 60'ter with a 120 sq m/1,300 sq' no extras schooner rig with plenty of room, both inside and out. This is not magic, it is a function of smaller surface areas/less materials, lower overall loads (apart from the concentrated ones between the rudders on the lee hull) and an improved building system.

Alansmith
Shunting off a lee shore in a strong breeze is not quite as easy as shunt/gybing, but a lot less stressful than tacking.
On most cats, the person watching/retrieving the anchor is perched on the bows trying to avoid the flogging jib and either hand signalling or yelling so the helmsman can hear. When the anchor is up, the boat is head to wind and sails and rudder must be backed to get it sailing.
To tack, choose a spot where the sea is flat, and if it is not, or the speed is too low, you get caught in irons and are driven backwards, perhaps damaging the rudders.
For these reasons, most cats and (monos) avoid any possibility of anchoring on a lee shore and if caught on one, start their motors. Which is good seamanship, until a prop finds a crab pot, a mooring line or a sheet over the side.

On the schooner rigged proa, the anchor winch is next to the helmsman, the watcher is a couple of meters away and no where near the sails. When the anchor is up, the sails are sheeted on, the boat luffed and it is on course.
To shunt, you release the sheets, then pull in the forward sail which gets the boat moving, and helps blow the aft sail into place. Trim the aft one and steer onto the new course. Pulling in the sails is much easier on a wishbone or other self vanging (Ballestron, etc) rig as you are only pulling the sail in, not down. The sheet loads are the same as traveller loads, but without all the friction.
The sail area required is much smaller as you do not have to attain enough speed to get you through the eye of the wind. There are no flogging sails or sheets, everything can be done at a stately pace, without the need for raised voices or co ordinated crew work. An altogether less stressful situation than the catamaran.

Assuming a beach to leeward, the worst case harryproa scenario is to sail/drift/let out enough anchor line and land on the beach. The rudders kick up (or can be lifted) and the boat draws about 200mm/8" so it sits far enough out of the surf to not suffer a pounding and is moved gently up the beach by a rising tide.

Shunting while motor sailing requires either running motor(s) in reverse or starting one and stopping the other. We solved this on the Cruiser with an electric pod motor with an efficient, large diameter fixed prop mounted on a rotating leg. Not just for shunting, it is also good for moving the boat sideways, and can be raised to remove fouled lines and when sailing.

Seaslugcaravan
Comparing individual aspects of low cost proas with unstayed masts, no daggerboards and easily handled rigs to conventional catamarans is not apples to oranges, it is the entire fruit shop.
The apples-apples comparison is the suitability of the boats for fast, safe, low cost cruising. I'm interested in your (and others') opinions of the boat for this purpose.

Luc
An advantage of not having the rig and rudders in the windward hull is that there are many more layout options. There is no reason why the saloon can't be extended at one end or both, if you can live with the added weight (not much, depending on what you put in the new space), windage (considerable) and looks (pretty sure Steinar could make it look acceptable).

rob
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Old 29-04-2015, 05:02   #72
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Re: extending the saloon

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Nimblemotors
Light with lots of sail is definitely fast. Length is the third main factor for speed. Tall masts are good in light air, not so good in heavy air.
Screechers, spinnakers etc are not as effective (can't be used on all points of sail) nor as easy to handle as equivalent mainsail area on an unstayed mast.
Hence the Cruiser is a ~5 ton 60'ter with a 120 sq m/1,300 sq' no extras schooner rig with plenty of room, both inside and out. This is not magic, it is a function of smaller surface areas/less materials, lower overall loads (apart from the concentrated ones between the rudders on the lee hull) and an improved building system.


rob
Hull length is a primary factor but unless you are flying the short hull, hull speed of the shorter hull becomes an issue on the proa.

Taller masts aren't a problem in high winds. Fully depolyed sails are. Reef the sails and you effectively have the smaller sail plan.

I've done research into proas and nothing says they will outperform a cat with hulls the same length as the longer hull on the proa (assuming similar living accomodations).

I will agree an unstayed mast is somewhat simpler to operate but comes with other negatives (expense, larger diameter, needs stronger structure in the hull, etc...)
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Old 29-04-2015, 10:03   #73
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

On first take, I really like the boat.

I would worry about the engineering. The design is so unique that I think it's hard to have good intuition for what looks right. We all know the problem spots with conventional boats, just because there are so many of them that have had a chance to fail. Mast step, hull to deck joint, keel bolts, rudders, and etc. There are only a handful of large proa's like this, so I don't feel it's as easy to be confident about the details.

If I were to blow ~$300-400k on this boat (I think that's what lucdekeyser is estimating), I'd want to talk to the designer a lot about where he thinks the problems could be. Where he beefed up the structure. How he figured out how to design those parts. And then I'd pay another naval architect to check some of his work. A major structural failure, while moored in a hurricane with a short chop or using a series drogue in a gale or whatever, would be the pits.

For my own style, I would want a better way to motor than dropping the dingy partly in the water. Using the dinghy is a cool idea, and fine for a lot of parts of the world, but not how I'd want to go far. Sometimes I really want to motor the last few miles into a short chop and get into the harbor or around the headland. I'm not sure the dinghy would do that.

And I would be a little worried about water coming into the saloon. I would hate to have the tops of waves clipping off, coming into the salon, and draining into the big hull. So I know I am too conservative and paranoid, but to take one of these things into the Indian Ocean or maybe even Tonga-New Zealand, I'd want watertight doors on the two queen berths, maybe a generous lip at the entrance to the salon or before the step down to the galley, and large drains. Maybe I am misunderstanding how these things ride at sea and it's just not possible for a wave to slosh in like that. In my previous monohull the bow would scoop up green water and it'd roll all the way back into the cockpit, to fill it. Or sometimes a wave would hit the hull sideways and the top would seem to clip off and make us very wet. I'd want to not worry about this boat even if I am riding to a series drogue and the wind has shifted but the swell is still coming sideways across the smaller hull.
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Old 30-04-2015, 07:29   #74
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Re: extending the saloon

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...
I will agree an unstayed mast is somewhat simpler to operate ...
I have another reading of the "somewhat" when going through Sponberg
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Old 30-04-2015, 07:49   #75
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Re: extending the saloon

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I have another reading of the "somewhat" when going through Sponberg
A very simplistic take on reliability. Masts aren't falling over left and right simply because they have more parts. Overall they are extremely reliable and fairly simple technology that your average sailor can keep an eye on with a modest amount of effort.

While I suspect the overall incidence of unstayed mast failure is low, I have heard of them failing, so they aren't a magic bullet eliminating all possibility of failure.

Now if he has data supporting the likelyhood of failure (as in X% of this type of mast has failed), I would be interested but it's probably the comparison of 0.000X% vs 0.000Y% fail where the failures can be traced to abuse or lack of maintenance. Of course that's a bad approach regardless of the design.
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