Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-04-2015, 03:09   #16
Registered User
 
Mitchell87's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 23
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Does having the mast on one hull create a tendency to steer the boat to the opposite side?
__________________

__________________
Mitchell87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 04:00   #17
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 506
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell87 View Post
Does having the mast on one hull create a tendency to steer the boat to the opposite side?

Yes it does. The drag of the short fat high windage windward hull will generate weather helm. Most noticeable in light sloppy conditions. The Melbourne based Denny inspired proa resorted to sailing with the windward hull to leeward in light winds as the vessel spent a lot of time rounding up and going into irons.

A true pacific proa has a very small low drag low windage windward hull for a very good reason.

It must be noted that contrary to the impression created by the Harryproa website, Robs proas are pretty much an unknown quantity.


For futher proa information try Joe Osters proa website.
Pacific Proa Web Sites - www.PacificProa.net
__________________

__________________
Seaslug Caravan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 07:56   #18
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Now please explain how that boat is not a catamaran.

An advantages of building a catamaran is having two identical hulls,
so you only build one mold for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Visited the Ballotta yard a couple of years ago. I have no concerns with their ability to work with composites and would be happy to use them. Very good workmanship.

The Kelsall 16m Proa can't be far from completition now. Will be interesting to see how it performs.
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 14:14   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 100
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
It would be a good time to visit the boatyard now with the vessels in construction if you are serious.

If I was to build there I would rent a place for the last couple of months of the build.

The cost of the Kelsall proa should give a good comparative costing as the harryproa should be lower cost. Labour cost is the real advantage of a build there.

Giorgio Ballotta will essentially give you a custom fitout. They are very experienced with flat panel infusion.

I think you need to build in shade from the start rather than as an afterthought and Kelsalls solution looks ideal. Particularly as you will be cruising in the tropics. its an afterthought on the Harryproa's built so far.

I didn't follow your pole comment but if its a pole for pole dancing. Essential on a vesssel that size.
Excellent advice. The future owner of the first cruiser is there at the moment to start things up. The cost of the Kelsall proa would be quite indicative but the HP 60 should require much less labor as the cutouts and setups of the foam et al are all on the flat. So a low wage cost yard is proportionally less attractive. I agree the shade should be built in from the start. Of course in the low lands this is less of a worry. Keeping out of the rain is.
My wife calls the mast a pole. Keeping that out of her space is key.
__________________
lucdekeyser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 14:17   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 100
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell87 View Post
Does having the mast on one hull create a tendency to steer the boat to the opposite side?
no more no less than it does on a trimaran.
__________________
lucdekeyser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 15:06   #21
Registered User
 
Mitchell87's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 23
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
no more no less than it does on a trimaran.
I was going to write a serious response, but the thought occurred to me that you maybe are being sarcastic
__________________
Mitchell87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 15:43   #22
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 506
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
no more no less than it does on a trimaran.
Not the whole story.

The trimarans lee hull is immersed causing lee helm(windward hull has lower drag due to vessel heel, maybe even clear of the water on a modern design)

Lee helm causes vessel to naturally bear off and gain speed and steerage. Not weather cock head to wind ala harryproa.

Lee helm easily corrected with forward centre board placement for a balanced boat when sailing.

Nature of the beast.
__________________
Seaslug Caravan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 16:54   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Now please explain how that boat is not a catamaran.

An advantages of building a catamaran is having two identical hulls,
so you only build one mold for them.

In most of his designs Kelsall does not use a mold for his hulls. check his website.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 17:50   #24
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
In most of his designs Kelsall does not use a mold for his hulls. check his website.
I know all about KSS, it is a good way to build a boat when you can't make a mold. But even still, making two of the same hulls is going to be FASTER than making two different ones.
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 18:21   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
I know all about KSS, it is a good way to build a boat when you can't make a mold. But even still, making two of the same hulls is going to be FASTER than making two different ones.
Marginally if any having seen how they do it in Peru. Will be interesting to see how the KSS proa performs. the sail situation is well balanced and proven.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2015, 18:32   #26
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Marginally if any having seen how they do it in Peru. Will be interesting to see how the KSS proa performs. the sail situation is well balanced and proven.
Well I disagree entirely.
I always can do the same thing a second time MUCH faster.
The only exception I can think of is having sex, the first time it went very quickly.
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2015, 02:06   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 100
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

The Kelsall proa is a very different concept. It is meant to be a cheaper charterboat for at least four couples sunbathing and partying with friends in the tropics. I am sure it will do at least as good as any other catamaran in this category.

Going back to the essence of this thread. I think I have done my homework but I like seasoned cruisers to poke holes to the fit of my requirements with what the HP 60 can deliver. The comments were already very useful in (mostly) confirming my premises. In resume I see the following advantages:
- the sea keeping qualities of a 60 footer
- the airy space of a 40 foot catamaran
- at the price of a 30 foot catamaran
- the sailing simplicity of a proa with double rudders/schooner unstayed masts (in very light wind conditions the motor will do fine)
- the safety of full functionality from a central cockpit, no reason to venture out to bow ends nor narrow side decks, the simplest of MOB procedure
- the level of survivability in a storm with all appendages retracted, no problems with sliding back nor sideways, protection from the windward hull, ...
The disadvantages are:
- the cost of a 60 foot slip if buoy mooring is no option
- no short tacking in local round the buoy races
- med mooring is not straightforward (or straightbackward ;-)
Issues to be worked out:
- add retractable shade (simple awning to the side of cabin?)
- windows less slanted?
- steering wheel off center to open up walkway?
- single taller vs double shorter masts?
__________________
lucdekeyser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2015, 02:52   #28
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 506
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
The I see the following advantages:

- at the price of a 30 foot catamaran
I think more research would be a good thing.
__________________
Seaslug Caravan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2015, 05:34   #29
Registered User
 
RKsailsolo's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St Paul, US
Boat: Jeanneau 349 2015
Posts: 706
New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
I think more research would be a good thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
- at the price of a 30 foot catamaran
-
Just looked at the Balotta site and price quote for a forty six is about $600K as of 2012. I see the theoretical savings in simple design but in practice is another thing.
__________________
RKsailsolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2015, 10:57   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 100
Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKsailsolo View Post
Just looked at the Balotta site and price quote for a forty six is about $600K as of 2012. I see the theoretical savings in simple design but in practice is another thing.
The 46 is a Nathan Stanton design. A better comparison is the KSS 39 which quotes for $340K sail away price. And as the KSS method does take its time I expect a better quote for the HP cruiser.

"This HP cruiser build method infuses everything from doors, hatches, bunks, bulkheads and hulls except the last foot of the end pieces. Full 3D CAD has simplified setting up for the infusion so there is no measuring required in the mould as all the foam cutting and inserts are done on the flat. Bulkheads, frames, shelves, sink unit, steps and lockers glue in to slots. There is no sanding, grinding, filling, fairing, wet laminating, cutting of cured glass or polishing apart from the end pieces." You can see that the bottoms are flat with rounded corners. It should be easy to verify that with Ballotta the coming weeks and its impact on the price quote.

Whatever the build method, my focus is on the cost of ownership over 5 to 10 years. The sail away price is only a fraction of that.
__________________

__________________
lucdekeyser is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruise, cruiser

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
BAR (Blade Area Ratio) Sailor Style vs Fast Yacht Style Propellers rotorman Propellers & Drive Systems 2 20-11-2011 20:50
Stuffing Box - Bolt Gland Style vs Spud Style sv.Crake Construction, Maintenance & Refit 15 16-07-2011 08:08
The New-Style Fuel Cans Celestialsailor Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 46 16-08-2009 01:51



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:32.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.