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Old 26-05-2015, 05:10   #226
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
No Table. They have a table some 60ft x 20ft from when they produced several KSS 56ft cats. They infuse on a very large flat table using the KSS flat panel method that Rob Denny has designed for. They had a roof mold for the 56ft ers.
KSS is a clever way of building, but the Cruisers are built in two moulds built from flat panels with deck and chine radii added. Among other advantages, this means 2 joins instead of 3 and no cutting, shaping, glassing and fairing below the waterline.

This method evolved from the first 2 Solitarry hulls built in a couple of KSS workshops we organised. I saw room for improvements so built a second set of hulls for myself to see what worked. see

I then built a 6m and a 12m hull (Bucket List see The “Bucket List” blog | for some build photos) to debug the mould method, which is how the Cruiser 60 is built.

Zulu 40
The time line for building, and hence price is up to the owner and the builder. I have an accurate materials list for the lee hull, masts and beams. which I will put on the web page when the windward hull and bridgedeck plans are completed, but the labour and overheads are not in my control. .

Glad you like the concept, I hope the new boats will be equally likeable. Any questions on either, feel free to contact me direct (harryproa@gmail.com) or join the harryproa chat group.

As for pocket cruisers, there have been several designed and a few built. The problem is getting enough people to agree on the "perfect boat". The design is the easy part. Setting up a builder for kit production and doing the marketing are both things I have tried, with less than stellar results. If you want to handle these aspects, I would love to be involved.

Downunder,
A 25'ter sailed solo 1,000 miles up and down the not very hospitable west and south Australian coasts (Albany to Shark Bay), a 40'ter crossed the Tasman (including a gale), there is another 25'ter been sailing in NSW for 10 years and there is the 50'ter in the video. None of which were test beds. My 25'ter is, but apart from the occasional camping trip, it is not a cruiser.

The Ballotta build will save money due to their low overheads and experience with infusing, but do you not think that a bigger saving will come from the lack of extra work and materials I detailed in post# 210?

Think about the "utility of shunting" next time you are tacking an undercanvassed cat short handed in a big sea and strong winds, or gybing an over canvassed one in the same situation.
Better, think about it when you are off watch on a rainy night in these circumstances and you are required on deck to help.
Better still, throw a pfd in the water on a rugged day and tell your crew to pretend it is you. If all goes well, the cat will take several minutes to get back to it and will be unable to effectively stop to pick it up unless the crew are good enough to luff the boat head to wind and stop next to it. If all goes badly, they will drop the sails, start the engine, foul the prop on a loose sheet and you will never see the pfd again.
The proa shunts in seconds and is on a reciprocal course. It can sail close to the MOB, then slowly sail up to it and stop, or go in reverse.
Single handed shunting is easy. Release the sheet (2 if it is a schooner), pull in the new one(s), steer onto the new course. No picking a spot where the waves are small, worrying about getting up to speed, getting in irons, flapping sails, flogging sheets, travellers whizzing across the deck or granny tacks. Plenty of time to stop and look around at any stage.
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Old 26-05-2015, 05:25   #227
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post

On the one hand theres the concept, on the other theres the boats. And I think that this is where people are tripping over or developing argument, theyre trying to analyse something almost incapable of analysis even if for the time being.

That said, its hard to disapprove of the utility of these boats if you cant say with certainty thats comparatively too expensive or too slow etc. If you cant place them in the latticework of the strata of available boats you wont ever be able to know if you are getting the values that you desire.

.
I think the problem is, when coming to market with a new and unusual product, the burden isn't to DISPROVE the marketing statements. The burden is to PROVE the marketing statements.

I think it's a really cool idea but when people get evasive about pricing and performance and talk about "as soon as someone commissions one", my presumption is it's marketing not fact. I also presume I'm talking to a marketer when they won't openly admit the shortcomings of the product. If the product really had no shortcomings, it would quickly dominate the market (If octagonal wheels were all around better than round wheels, we'd all be driving on octagonal wheels.)
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Old 26-05-2015, 09:49   #228
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

There is NO comparison to this boat with electric cars.

A better comparison here is building a three wheeled motorcycle.
This design is like adding a sidecar to a motorcycle. It is something already done 100 years ago, there is no new technology making it somehow better now than it was in 1915.
Sidecar's on motorcycles do work, they do have some advantages, but you might notice they are not common, motorcycles use 2 wheels for good reason. Cars are made with 4 wheels for a good reason. A 3-wheeled car also has advantages, making one by adding a side car is not a good design.

The XIT boat by Hitch is innovative and better and cheaper and easier to build. You might notice Hitch isn't going around telling everyone how great his boat is. He is a designer/builder not a salesman.


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Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
I think I have read every post. Some of it I don't understand. Through out history hasn't all new design upheavals been like what we are seeing in this post. Negativity, derisive banter, inflexible thought , entrenched positions at all cost and sometimes devoid of logic?

I have a friend who bought a Nissan Leaf all electic car several years ago for 40k. Now he is trying to sell it for 11k with about 15k miles on it. He believed the hype of 110 miles per charge. He was only getting 60-65 miles per charge. That is a radius of only 32 miles. Does anyone doubt what will be possible with all electrics in the next 10 years? Designs evolve, new technologies are created to solve issues, people buy in and prices come down... Blah blah blah.

With Denny's design... For me... I see it the same way as the electric car. It may end up being a great thing for the boating community. I am really interested to see how it all pans out. Keep an open mind my friends. If it is a good design King Neptune will let us know. If There is faulty logic it will become known. Remember the Ostar racer sometime back with the really long shaft on the keel with a heavy torpedo at the bottom? The racer could swing the keel depending on the tack. He set off from the east coast and was never seen again! They found the boat but, alas, no skipper. His wife or fiancé sued the architect for faulty design.

Denny's design is fresh. It has a lot of things going for it. Personally, I wish the best for his project and hope his goals of safety, speed, cost, and enjoyable yachting are obtained. Time will tell... Relax guys...wouldn't it be cool if he is right?
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Old 26-05-2015, 09:58   #229
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I think the problem is, when coming to market with a new and unusual product, the burden isn't to DISPROVE the marketing statements. The burden is to PROVE the marketing statements.

you seem to be confused, Im not making any 'marketing statements'. and I think these were the answers you wanted here. Post #76
New style Harryproa cruiser

thanks for droppin by....
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Old 26-05-2015, 10:42   #230
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
you seem to be confused, Im not making any 'marketing statements'. and I think these were the answers you wanted here. Post #76
New style Harryproa cruiser

thanks for droppin by....
I never said you were marketing it. Early on in this threa the OP (who I'm guessing is affiliated with harry proa) was throwing around "facts" with no supporting data.

When questioned, we get evasive answers about actual cost and actual performance, along with a whole lot of iffy theory's about why it's better.
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Old 26-05-2015, 11:05   #231
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I never said you were marketing it. Early on in this threa the OP (who I'm guessing is affiliated with harry proa) was throwing around "facts" with no supporting data.
which has nothing to do with me

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
When questioned, we get evasive answers about actual cost and actual performance, along with a whole lot of iffy theory's about why it's better.
well you got your answer right there
anyone 'selling' his boat or 'marketing' his boat, is certain to be plastering a price all over the place.

As it happens the Op (remember him?), who nominates himself BTW as as 'a potential customer' was asking "What am I overlooking?"

New style Harryproa cruiser

was there something else ?
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Old 26-05-2015, 12:04   #232
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post

Do I want to blast through 8 to 10 foot seas? I have no desire to reenact a U boat attack in the North Atlantic.
now thats a pity because I could help you out a little there

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucdekeyser
The point is what are my constraints with a HP 60 vs a 60 foot catamaran? These I am interested in. My basic assumption is that the HP will perform at least as well as the cat. This forum may help put the right perspective on things.
if it where mine, Id be investigating getting a nav station in the saloon, and maybe a pilot berth or two at either of the forward ends (seems a little weird to say that). You have to have the berth cabin doors more outboard of the access from the saloon.

Leaving the bulkheads relatively in tact the only way I can see of doing this is putting the head/shower in the hull ends, and making the boat galley down. With the major implements of the galley like the stove and sink facing inboard, you have to relieve that part of the cabin with it to make room. Theyre 600mm deep max, and you still need standing room behind you. Meanwhile up in the saloon you can place a full size chart table facing outboard on the weather side, and minor instruments on top along the window line.

Im thinking if the saloon lounges were a little more inboard (fwd and aft) you lose a little lee side lounge but you could get a berth in each end on what is the cabin roof. Its also useful stowage when not a berth.
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Old 26-05-2015, 13:16   #233
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
...
I'd suggest the 7 knot claim would be maximum speed under motor. I've sailed on an xl2 at more than 7 knots in quite light winds.
That does make sense. Thank you for clearing up that confusion.
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Old 26-05-2015, 13:42   #234
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I think the problem is, when coming to market with a new and unusual product, the burden isn't to DISPROVE the marketing statements. The burden is to PROVE the marketing statements.

I think it's a really cool idea but when people get evasive about pricing and performance and talk about "as soon as someone commissions one", my presumption is it's marketing not fact. I also presume I'm talking to a marketer when they won't openly admit the shortcomings of the product. If the product really had no shortcomings, it would quickly dominate the market (If octagonal wheels were all around better than round wheels, we'd all be driving on octagonal wheels.)
Marketing (communication) is psychology applied to convincing people. Denney is no psychologist. Science is for proving facts. Don't confuse enthusiasm with marketing. No full color brochures here. No helicopter shoots.

Denney is designer and sells plans. Owner selects boatyard and negotiates price. So the first new design is waiting for the first price estimate. What is the evasion here?

Denney has published all mishaps over the years for everyone to read. That is an attitude I have only found in aviation. The marine industry could learn a lot here.

Remember the first Apple, the first Mac, the first Lisa, the first Newton, the first iPhone? Domination despite shortcomings.
There are two reactions to the observation that something is not (yet) popular: 1. nobody else has it, thus, there is something wrong and quit thinking 2. what is really wrong here and study.
This is a classic case of the "argumentum ad populum" fallacy.
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Old 26-05-2015, 14:00   #235
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
There is NO comparison to this boat with electric cars.

A better comparison here is building a three wheeled motorcycle.
This design is like adding a sidecar to a motorcycle. It is something already done 100 years ago, there is no new technology making it somehow better now than it was in 1915.
Sidecar's on motorcycles do work, they do have some advantages, but you might notice they are not common, motorcycles use 2 wheels for good reason. Cars are made with 4 wheels for a good reason. A 3-wheeled car also has advantages, making one by adding a side car is not a good design.

The XIT boat by Hitch is innovative and better and cheaper and easier to build. You might notice Hitch isn't going around telling everyone how great his boat is. He is a designer/builder not a salesman.
I agree there is not comparison to this boat with electric cars. There is a comparison with the electric engines put in boats. With your expertise I wonder what you would recommend for this HP cruiser at European latitudes. There seems to be a lot of confusion in the area.

I do not understand the analogy with motorcycles. Form will follow function and function is a response to requirement specifications. There are good reasons for a side car. Nowadays there is less need than in WWII, apparently.

The XIT is a very interesting design. I wonder if Hitch would design the same given the same requirements today. I wished Hitch was on internet so he could explain. I am sure he would be enthusiastic. Enthusiasm should not be mistaken for marketing.
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Old 26-05-2015, 14:49   #236
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
now thats a pity because I could help you out a little there



if it where mine, Id be investigating getting a nav station in the saloon, and maybe a pilot berth or two at either of the forward ends (seems a little weird to say that). You have to have the berth cabin doors more outboard of the access from the saloon.

Leaving the bulkheads relatively in tact the only way I can see of doing this is putting the head/shower in the hull ends, and making the boat galley down. With the major implements of the galley like the stove and sink facing inboard, you have to relieve that part of the cabin with it to make room. Theyre 600mm deep max, and you still need standing room behind you. Meanwhile up in the saloon you can place a full size chart table facing outboard on the weather side, and minor instruments on top along the window line.

Im thinking if the saloon lounges were a little more inboard (fwd and aft) you lose a little lee side lounge but you could get a berth in each end on what is the cabin roof. Its also useful stowage when not a berth.
This reminds me of the layout of the 40 foot Harry but then seriously upsized in the middle. The galley down will be a hard sell to the wife. But the saloon does not need to stay symmetric in layout. I was thinking of moving the wheel more to "fore" and have the nav table over the corner seat on the lee part of the "front" windows.
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Old 26-05-2015, 15:20   #237
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
This reminds me of the layout of the 40 foot Harry but then seriously upsized in the middle. The galley down will be a hard sell to the wife. But the saloon does not need to stay symmetric in layout. I was thinking of moving the wheel more to "fore" and have the nav table over the corner seat on the lee part of the "front" windows.
yes it is seen on other HP examples, and popular with space challenged (headroom) cats too. I think that having two sides it would offer more storage for the galley (claims to be larger than some NYC apartment kitchens), and a full size fully functional nav station. Having a walkway in the middle makes the saloon layout a little challenging.

I thought about using those leeward looking pockets in the corners of the saloon as you have, it would work it just challenges the symmetry of the saloon (maybe thats a good thing). Then theres a slightly adjusted lagoon concept ... use the aft end on the lee side of the cabin. Lagoon 380 below, and it seems like it would work very well. I think from memory nav is over on the hard right just out of shot. nice eh ...



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Old 26-05-2015, 16:35   #238
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by rob denney View Post
KSS is a clever way of building, but the Cruisers are built in two moulds built from flat panels with deck and chine radii added. Among other advantages, this means 2 joins instead of 3 and no cutting, shaping, glassing and fairing below the waterline.

This method evolved from the first 2 Solitarry hulls built in a couple of KSS workshops we organised. I saw room for improvements so built a second set of hulls for myself to see what worked. see

I then built a 6m and a 12m hull (Bucket List see The “Bucket List” blog | for some build photos) to debug the mould method, which is how the Cruiser 60 is built.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Downunder,
A 25'ter sailed solo 1,000 miles up and down the not very hospitable west and south Australian coasts (Albany to Shark Bay), a 40'ter crossed the Tasman (including a gale), there is another 25'ter been sailing in NSW for 10 years and there is the 50'ter in the video. None of which were test beds. My 25'ter is, but apart from the occasional camping trip, it is not a cruiser.

The Ballotta build will save money due to their low overheads and experience with infusing, but do you not think that a bigger saving will come from the lack of extra work and materials I detailed in post# 210?

---------------------------------------------
.
Was not aware you were using molds which is one reason Giorgio is holding back from a fixed quote.

Never disagreed that there will be less build time. Where a 50ft cat could take 15-20000 hours this 60ft will proberbly be between 5000 and 10,000 hours for a fully finished fitted out cruiser.

Luc, if you follow the Solar power threads on CF most of the new 40-45 ft cats are going with over 1kw of solar. Saloon roof needs to be built for easy attachment as part of design. One of the real advantages of a hardtop over at least part of the deck other than shade.
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Old 26-05-2015, 23:19   #239
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
There is NO comparison to this boat with electric cars.

A better comparison here is building a three wheeled motorcycle.
This design is like adding a sidecar to a motorcycle. It is something already done 100 years ago, there is no new technology making it somehow better now than it was in 1915.
Sidecar's on motorcycles do work, they do have some advantages, but you might notice they are not common, motorcycles use 2 wheels for good reason. Cars are made with 4 wheels for a good reason. A 3-wheeled car also has advantages, making one by adding a side car is not a good design.
those 3 wheel Morgans were great little cars, with their 2 wheels up front and front wheel drive, they were safe and lightweight, cheaper and quicker to build, less rolling resistance.

With Tesla's lithium battery factory getting online their volumes and innovative marketing will see lithium battery prices fall so lead acid batteries are set to disappear in less that 5 years. By that time electric vehicles will be much cheaper, more common and more able.

And all the auto manufacturers know its coming, they all have their production proto-types up and active development programs. They dont do research they just want to know what they can keep of the present plants. Because they also know electric cars do not require of vast cast metal infrastructure, they can be made by anyone who basically makes commodities. They are cookie cutter technology, and for them the possibility is that the sunset is on the horizon. Its a disquieting period.

Stuff changes over time, we learn new ways of doing things, some bright fella somewhere figures out a better way of doing something which persuades or enables change. What with the geo-politics of the oil economy, the west is feeling the need to unhook from the Middle East. You can see it as either because we need to or just because its better that we do right now, stuff that inevitably just makes sense. Change is inevitable.

And change can be hard, I guess not all people enjoy that. I used to liken it to my 'Shawshank Redemption theory', the one where 'Andy crawled through a river of **** and came out clean on the other side'.

guess what part we are in now ...
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Old 27-05-2015, 00:50   #240
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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...
I read about this model now. Its features seem to attract wives. It is an understatement to remark that this is not a quality to neglect. The place of the galley makes sense. I won't be able to move it further out on deck like on the G4 ;-) I have to remember: a separate shower and freezer. Hard top roof. 700 sold despite shortcomings consistent across the boats. I noted particularly a couple of safety issues which are paramount to me. But, in general, people like their boat and consider buying same next time around. Resale at 70% of original price in a couple of years. Advice is to buy as second owner, redo the rapidly deteriorating interior finish and upholstery and keep the boat as long as possible. Roughly.
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