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Old 23-05-2015, 15:06   #196
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
What is the price fork for such a cat in your experience?

It was your claim, you ought to know....
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Old 23-05-2015, 16:16   #197
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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It was your claim, you ought to know....
You are the experienced. I am the inexperienced.
I have used deductive logic to get a relative value. This means given everything else being equal but length related aspects.
The fork of the prices on internet is quite wide and a systematic comparison is hard to come by. Your experience might have cut through all that.
The Ballotta sail away price of the Kelsall 39 was 340K in 2012. I would suppose this is noticeably cheaper than the median price of a 40 foot catamaran. downunder expects a similar price for a HP cruiser 60. This would mean that the HP is already cheaper than a median priced 40 foot catamaran.
I have seen the build pictures of the Kelsall proa with the KSS method. Manual labor is significant. The HP cruiser has also a more simple structure. I expect a further drop in price with the Denney build method. This means that the HP cruiser has another couple of reason to be cheaper than the median price of a 40 foot catamaran. I suppose this will not be far off anymore from the median price of a 30 foot catamaran.
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Old 23-05-2015, 16:39   #198
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

I found it hard to source new boat data in Australia to compare, and I know manufacturing anything in Au is expensive. There are all sorts of regulations and tax arrangements that pump prices. That said a Schionning 10.3 even second hand a few yrs old are like $260k. So its possible they are right.

Elsewhere HP are offered as kits, and its a little problematical as some seem to be strip plank so lots of hours, other are FG components with like 360 hrs construction, but I guess just basically complete.

Where the 40ft kit was a reasonable $20k and seemed comprehensive. The 50ft Visionary isnt listed as a kit but materials are listed as 3,500 hours and about $50k.

On that basis how much would a HP 60ft kit be? $80k? time to complete?
but as they say on the site either whole boats, or parts of boats, so it seems negotiable based on an expected/extended completion time.
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Old 24-05-2015, 00:29   #199
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
You are the experienced. I am the inexperienced.
I have used deductive logic to get a relative value. This means given everything else being equal but length related aspects.
The fork of the prices on internet is quite wide and a systematic comparison is hard to come by. Your experience might have cut through all that.
The Ballotta sail away price of the Kelsall 39 was 340K in 2012. I would suppose this is noticeably cheaper than the median price of a 40 foot catamaran. downunder expects a similar price for a HP cruiser 60. This would mean that the HP is already cheaper than a median priced 40 foot catamaran.
I have seen the build pictures of the Kelsall proa with the KSS method. Manual labor is significant. The HP cruiser has also a more simple structure. I expect a further drop in price with the Denney build method. This means that the HP cruiser has another couple of reason to be cheaper than the median price of a 40 foot catamaran. I suppose this will not be far off anymore from the median price of a 30 foot catamaran.
Doesn't sound like you even know what the proa is going to cost, let alone how it compares to a 30 foot cat...

I don't know of many 30 foot cat's in production, but last I read, the Seawind 1000xl2 was $265,000. That's 35' 5". Five feet longer, so I guess you'd be talking in terms of around $250k max, right?

Good value then.
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Old 24-05-2015, 00:41   #200
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Doesn't sound like you even know what the proa is going to cost, let alone how it compares to a 30 foot cat...

I don't know of many 30 foot cat's in production, but last I read, the Seawind 1000xl2 was $265,000. That's 35' 5". Five feet longer, so I guess you'd be talking in terms of around $250k max, right?

Good value then.
like this for example ?
Used 2011 Seawind 1000 XL2 Sailing Cat Sail Boat - Yacht & Boat
used 2011 Seawind 1000 XL2 marked down to $335k

Seawinds are pretty low order boats when it comes to costs. I think I would want to know more about what sort of money we are talking about for HP better than we do right now. I think its an ok discussion to have but the 'value reasoning' is immaterial to me.
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Old 24-05-2015, 00:42   #201
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

I just don't understand the resistance and provocative nature of some of the replys! I wonder how many people that have alot to offer this forum don't contribute due to the confrontational or aggressive posts by a handful of people.
In regards to the cost of this sort of project the answer is it depends! How simple or Spartan one wants to make it. The nature of the design is to keep it simple and light. Also 35 foot cats vary in price ie. A gemini vs the seawind. Im trying to not bite at the more aggressive posts as I hope that depowers them and they just lose interest. The forum is great but seriously loses its way at times, its a real shame.

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Old 24-05-2015, 00:52   #202
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
like this for example ?
Used 2011 Seawind 1000 XL2 Sailing Cat Sail Boat - Yacht & Boat
used 2011 Seawind 1000 XL2 marked down to $335k

Seawinds are pretty low order boats when it comes to costs. I think I would want to know more about what sort of money we are talking about for HP better than we do right now. I think its an ok discussion to have but the 'value reasoning' is immaterial to me.
The claim was along the lines of:

Seakeeping of a 60 foot cat
Space of a 40 foot cat
Price of a 30 foot cat.

I think it's fair and reasonable to question these claims.

Personally, while it may be a very good value boat, I don't think it will meet any of these claims.

If it does meet all of them, it will be impressive indeed.
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Old 24-05-2015, 01:24   #203
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
The claim was along the lines of:

Seakeeping of a 60 foot cat
Space of a 40 foot cat
Price of a 30 foot cat.

I think it's fair and reasonable to question these claims.

Personally, while it may be a very good value boat, I don't think it will meet any of these claims.

If it does meet all of them, it will be impressive indeed.
like I said its an ok to have a discussion on that value reasoning, I just dont care much about it myself. I am interested in actual $ !

I also think that looked at through the lens of boat values in Australia, which I think many would agree are frequently shocking, they may well be right. Which is why Aussies have a history of drooling through US second hand boat lists.

As to space well, the space exceeds on the deck, the saloon compares well, the weather hull compares well. Yes it lacks 'accommodation' in the lee hull, but there is storage. If in your needs as with many, forward berths end up being storage areas, and where you would use the lee hull. Is the difference going to be all that much? Me thinks its a pass.

When it comes to seakeeping, I don't have any doubts that it has the potential to smoke the 40ft condos, but I don't have any experience at all with 60 ft cats so I just couldn't say, but to say its light for 60ft is an understatement.

That said its ability in seas should be better then sizable tris or cats due to that large ama. It has some worthwhile virtues
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Old 24-05-2015, 02:55   #204
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

It is fair to question the claim. Critiquing was the purpose of this thread. Some learn by confrontation and thinking out loud; others by study in contemplation. I can make abstraction from personalities behind the keyboard vs behind the wheel. All in all I find this forum compared to others quite welcoming and supportive. Thank you all for that.
The HP cruiser 60 is not a production boat (yet?). This means no brochure nor pricelist. Price is the result of negotiations with the boatyard. These are going on for hulls #1 as mentioned before. This also means no price markup for glossy brochures, helicopter shoots, exhibitions, matching sunglasses ...

And yes in the end only the actual $ count, but then in cost of ownership over 10 years. The design suggests promising maintenance and operational costs. As has been pointed out already the stickler is the resale value. But beyond the influence of image which is mostly out of one owner's control, the same advantages should play through for the next owner.

I agree with zulu40 that the claim about space will be most under pressure. The 40 foot Bucket List charter racer is the HP in its purest form. Preserving as much of the essence of that concept in a cruiser is the design goal. Thus, configuring a HP like a camper bus is not a HP anymore. Kelsall's charter proa is an example of a proa that is only one step away from just a bidirectional biplane rigged catamaran. The arguments to have hulls of different lengths, as mentioned before, are still real but remain less convincing. But it made enough business sense to her owner.
For the HP cruiser 60, without compromising much, the single bunks in the lee hull can be easily converted to double bunks with a flare/pod extending a couple of feet towards the center. Space wise these would be as (un)appealing as bow berths but being more central have better motion.
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Old 24-05-2015, 03:41   #205
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

thanks for that lucdekeyser

I guess Im getting close to closing arguments for me, one particular thing first. I have been calling this a Pacific Proa, which isnt really true, indeed the HP shares some of the Atlantic and Pacific proa attributes, but is neither.

occupying the Ocean between where the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans meet
.............
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Old 24-05-2015, 03:47   #206
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
like this for example ?
Used 2011 Seawind 1000 XL2 Sailing Cat Sail Boat - Yacht & Boat
used 2011 Seawind 1000 XL2 marked down to $335k

Seawinds are pretty low order boats when it comes to costs. ....
According to the specs the max speed of that Seawind is 7 knots. How should I interpret this? Is this number so low to prevent litigation?
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Old 24-05-2015, 03:57   #207
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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According to the specs the max speed of that Seawind is 7 knots. How should I interpret this? Is this number so low to prevent litigation?
being made in the place that inhabits the capital of litigation, the US. Possibly true, and perhaps they just expect a few will go over.

...since the original interpretation of seawinds was ultra fast/fun but minimalist coastal cruisers, the bridgedeck is just the most rudimentary of addons to satisfy an amount of coastal cruising.

Personally I think I would find a later Wharram with a cuddy more appealing, but maybe thats just me
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Old 24-05-2015, 04:45   #208
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
thanks for that lucdekeyser

I guess Im getting close to closing arguments for me, one particular thing first. I have been calling this a Pacific Proa, which isnt really true, indeed the HP shares some of the Atlantic and Pacific proa attributes, but is neither.

occupying the Ocean between where the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans meet
.............
There is no standardization body to police the use of these terms. I only use pacific for proa's with the rig in the lee hull and atlantic for the reverse. So HP's are a type of pacific proa's. For others, pacific has also strong cultural and other structural connotations. Discussions have often resulted in more emotional confusion.

As I do not feel nostalgic about the ancient origins of proa's used in the pacific, I prefer to avoid the "proper" islanders' terms ending in "a". There is a hull essentially meant to be sailed to lee and another one meant to windward, in short, the lee/lw hull and the ww hull connected by at least one beam. I am still looking for a replacement for the term "proa" as it is so emotionally laden it hampers clear reasoning. It is a transverse symmetric twin hulled vessel, where the regular catamaran is a sagittal symmetric twin hulled vessel. At least under the waterplane. "Bidirectional catamaran" comes closest to a usable term: It is a catamaran that sails as well forward as it does backwards. What is that good for people then ask? And then one can explain the different practical advantages. Only Euclidean geometrists and atomic particle physicists prefer the plane symmetry explanations. Those are not a large segment in the market ;-)
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Old 24-05-2015, 04:51   #209
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

For monohullers I explain that the HP is a monohull with a canted winged keel fixed in the waterplane and large enough to replace the lead with people and gear.
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Old 24-05-2015, 06:54   #210
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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No one has provided any evidence, it won't be speed limited by the shorter fatter hull. Unlike a 40' cat built on 60' hulls where both provide the higher speed of 60' hulls.
Read post #76, where I provided precisely this evidence. If you have any proa based evidence that counters this, please let us know.
.................................
For cruising boats, the drag difference between stayed and unstayed masts is much less important than the lack of maintenance and the unstayed rig advantages of being able to tack and gybe, hoist, lower, raise and completely depower the sails regardless of wind strength or direction.

And the reduction of stress for all involved that this level of ease and safety provides.

The speed difference is not about the drag. It is the ability, with the unstayed rig, to carry full sail at night, in squally conditions, when shorthanded or the forecast is bad, knowing that, whatever the wind strength or direction you can safely and totally depower the boat by releasing the sheet, then safely and easily reduce sail (or not, and still maintain a comfortable speed and be able to manoeuvre ) at your leisure.
.................................
I am not being coy about the weights or the cost of the Cruiser 60. I don't know them. When I do, I will make them public, the same as I do for all aspects of harryproas.

I do know that the 18m/60' leeward hull requires 3 infusions: one for each hull half, and one for all the bulkheads, bunk tops, etc. These include all the bulkhead and shelf landings, hatches, doors, joins, rebates for windows, local beefing up for beams, masts, rudders and fittings, all edge treatments and a void free laminate with no excess resin.

There is no mould polishing, cutting or grinding of cured fibreglass, laminating post infusion, bogging or fairing prior to painting inside and out, apart from the small nose pieces which are built conventionally.

I'd be interested to know how much material and time any of the builders on this thread estimate they would have saved if they had used a technique with these benefits.
.................................................. ...
it is hard to believe a discussion is happening comparing the "cost of a 30' cat" (varies from a few grand to several hundred), "space of a 40'ter" (varies from nothing to apartment size), performance of a 60'ter (varies from dead slow to extremely quick).

The original comment was not a promise, it was an indication that the Cruiser 60 will perform well, have enough space and not cost much.

Spacious enough for a family of 5 to live in it in 4 seperate cabins, with 3 toilets/showers. It will sleep 8 if required, comfortably feed 16 in the saloon and party 50+ outside, with somewhere for most of them to sit. Any 40' cats that can do this? or 60'ters?
The speed will depend on what extra weight goes in it, but it will weigh <4 tonnes rigged and empty so should get along ok with 120 sq m/1,200 sq' sail area.
The cost won't be known until it is finished, but if the build method works as well as it did on the 6m/20' and 12m/40' hulls we built to sort out the bugs, it won't be much. See above and estimate the savings.
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