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Old 21-05-2015, 05:37   #151
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
So if unstayed masts are so great why are the vast majority of boats (monohulls included) still using stays? They've been around for quite a while and I see no significant shift towards widespread usage outside SOME racing boats and a couple of oddballs.
The vast majority of boats are stock production designs, and requiring of general purpose inventory that can be preselected from a standardised specification. Standard aluminium profiles have the benefit of being cost effective because they can be mass produced

Boats such as HP we can agree are not stock, they are specialised designs befitting a custom solution, because quite obviously it has 'special' needs. And not to let some of those pass, it needs to be able to rotate through 180 degrees, it needs to be simple and safe to manage because of the boats high aptitude operational differences. And it will benefit from the reduced drag due to the higher operational speeds it will endure. Drag is a cube root law, the higher the speed the disproportionately greater the releasing effect.

Indeed the entire boat would be heavier if it were to use stays, and the structure would need local reinforcing as well as lateral and longitudinal stiffness between the stays to control the tension forces rigs such as this exhibit. A rig with stays is the solution if you want a slower boat that is heavier.

At this point in time there are no standard stayless profiles that designers can utilise, each are especially designed and made. As long as that situation is extant stayless spars will remain a low volume high end solution.
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Old 21-05-2015, 06:40   #152
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Re: extending the saloon

Using a roll out cover, the Cruiser 60 will have complete protection from the sun for those in the cockpit area.
The helmsman will be able to see all of both sails and all of the horizon while sitting in the shade and/or sheltered from rain and spray, without leaving his seat or twisting his neck. If it is a nice night or a cloudy day, he will be able to roll up the cover and enjoy watching the clouds or the stars. If the weather is hot, cold or crappy, he has the option of steering from inside the saloon, with the door open or shut and no water coming in while sailing. If any owner prefers a solid cover, we can design one.

I don't know of any cat (or mono) which has such a user friendly helm set up.

At anchor, the entire bridgedeck area can be shaded if required. This shade can also be used as a clean rain collector if required.

The Cruiser range of boats have air circulating in the cabins and the saloon when the boat is sailing or at rest. This is achieved with large dorade type vents mounted above the waterline on the lee side of the ww hull, under the bridgedeck where wave impact is minimal and the air much cooler. These don't work on a cat as one one tack, they are swamped.

The windows between the cockpit and the saloon can be fully opened. Owner's choice whether they are hinged on the top or side edges, or sliding. Opening hatches at the ends of the bunks on the lee side will be out of the rain and spray most of the time, allowing excellent air flow in the cabins. Hatches in the roof will be usable in fine weather.

The first Cruiser 60 will be heading south from Peru, not north. It is likely the windows will be double glazed and a heater fitted.

Valhalla,
Any well maintained stayed mast which is set up properly will be fine. The difference is, that on an unstayed mast there is no maintenance, no rigging to set up and nothing to worry about. It is the lack of worrying and the ease of use that makes them such good value for cruising boats. Like a harryproa, you need to sail on one to appreciate their advantages.

Comparing prices is not as simple as carbon vs alloy. You have to include the rigging, fittings, extra sails and deck gear for the stayed rig and the additional strengthening each rig requires. On a cat this includes much of the main bulkhead, the forebeam, the traveller, aft beam, shroud chainplates and the hulls themselves. The amount of extra laminate with an unstayed mast is trivial in comparison.

Comparing cost and weight is not easy. On any usual basis (length/space/speed) the harryproa and it's rig are lighter and cheaper than a cruising cat.
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Old 21-05-2015, 07:34   #153
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Exactly the point for Luc. it is much better for him to have the job done by Ballotta at build in the factory than later at the wharf after launch as there is not a marina with liftout for that size vessel in Lima having spent 3 weeks there with Giorgio Ballotta only cranes.

If Rob Denny can't come up with a solution I am sure Giorgio Ballotta can come up with something that is asthetically appealing as he does nice work.

The point also is that Rob Denney's Model renderer also has a sun seeking not sun aware design in his blood coming from the Baltic area. The saloon design is drawn to capture the sun not provide protection.

Note Dale Tourniers comments.

I agree many of Schonning's designs in the small range are somewhat clostrophic however some of his recent designs are more practical for liveaboard cruising and are including overhangs. His arrow range also.

The Arrow 1360
Here is my latest acme portable sun defence design. I was thinking about calling it a hat.. What do you think?



I can make it in a wide range of colours... Was thinking to set the price point at about 5 dollars. Do you think there is a market for it?

It is a "boat". Wind in your hair(not much left) and the sun on your back and all that....

This is what Thai site workers use in degrees of temp and luminosity that would melt iron. They are very sensitive about their skin fairness but manage without problem working through the mid day to thwart the attempts of ultra violet to turn them into shrivelled mummified hunks of leather. To spends 1000's of dollars so you don't need to wear a hat 1 meter from a shaded open saloon designed for moments when you don't want to wear a hat seems.. Well, a bit of over kill. IMHO.

I think you need more shade on your boat downunder coz clearly your thinking has been affected. Maybe instead I could interest you in my latest invention. The hat!

My concern would not be the sun as I think that is covered off. My concern would be some kind of wind deflector at the helm. I am working on my acme windscreen to resolve this but it is quite small and before you ask... No - You can not have window wipers..
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Old 21-05-2015, 11:32   #154
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
The vast majority of boats are stock production designs, and requiring of general purpose inventory that can be preselected from a standardised specification. Standard aluminium profiles have the benefit of being cost effective because they can be mass produced

Boats such as HP we can agree are not stock, they are specialised designs befitting a custom solution, because quite obviously it has 'special' needs. And not to let some of those pass, it needs to be able to rotate through 180 degrees, it needs to be simple and safe to manage because of the boats high aptitude operational differences. And it will benefit from the reduced drag due to the higher operational speeds it will endure. Drag is a cube root law, the higher the speed the disproportionately greater the releasing effect.

Indeed the entire boat would be heavier if it were to use stays, and the structure would need local reinforcing as well as lateral and longitudinal stiffness between the stays to control the tension forces rigs such as this exhibit. A rig with stays is the solution if you want a slower boat that is heavier.

At this point in time there are no standard stayless profiles that designers can utilise, each are especially designed and made. As long as that situation is extant stayless spars will remain a low volume high end solution.
You are talking about effect not cause. If they were all around better, you would see standard mast sections being produced. Unstayed masts are not a new idea that simply hasn't had a chance to take over market share.

I'm fully aware how drag increases (that was my point) and that's why it's irrelevant for a cruising boat, you are still down in the relatively flat part of the drag curve where minor changes in the aerodynamics make little difference.

The proa design is basically forced into an unstayed mast if you want it over the downwind hull because if you ever got back winded, there would be nothing to support it. It's a design compromise to accomodate a limitation of the proa.
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Old 21-05-2015, 11:48   #155
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
You are talking about effect not cause. If they were all around better, you would see standard mast sections being produced. Unstayed masts are not a new idea that simply hasn't had a chance to take over market share.
because for monohulls for the mostpart most wont go fast enough to benefit if speed where the consideration. Catamarans are harder to secure a stayless mast unless its a biplane rig. There is quite simply a small audience, but nonetheless an ever greater presence in racing. They are predominantly populating custom designed and built boats, not stock boats which are far more numerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
I'm fully aware how drag increases (that was my point) and that's why it's irrelevant for a cruising boat, you are still down in the relatively flat part of the drag curve where minor changes in the aerodynamics make little difference.
except this is a fast cruising boat. I dont know this but I would assume area to area it would be faster than a cat, cats are faster than monos etc. If you would install such a mast on a mono (and people do) you would have more reason to do so on a proa

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
The proa design is basically forced into an unstayed mast if you want it over the downwind hull because if you ever got back winded, there would be nothing to support it. It's a design compromise to accomodate a limitation of the proa.
I could be wrong but I cant see an alloy mast with standing rigging working near as well, so given that perhaps it is a limitation for pacific proas. But it is doubtlessly beneficial for the same reasons it worked on Freedom boats, short handed sailing, safer operation, faster sailing, lighter structure.

In any event I havent seen a stayed rig design on a proa that can accomplish shunting, perhaps you can explain to me how that works.
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Old 21-05-2015, 11:57   #156
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
In any event I havent seen a stayed rig design on a proa that can accomplish shunting, perhaps you can explain to me how that works.
And there ya go. If you can't have something on your design, and must have something else, you would argue that something else is better.
I would not have a stayed mast. The point is stayed mast is cheaper and faster, I don't know WTF the argument is about that, except that this HP is claimed to be cheaper, yet has a more expensive mast, so somehow deny it??

So we STILL don't have an answer, is this your boat luc, and what did it cost?
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Old 21-05-2015, 12:00   #157
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by rob denney View Post
...
The Cruiser range of boats have air circulating in the cabins and the saloon when the boat is sailing or at rest. This is achieved with large dorade type vents mounted above the waterline on the lee side of the ww hull, under the bridgedeck where wave impact is minimal and the air much cooler. These don't work on a cat as one one tack, they are swamped.
...
splendid idea.
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Old 21-05-2015, 12:04   #158
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
And there ya go. If you can't have something on your design, and must have something else, you would argue that something else is better.
I would not have a stayed mast. The point is stayed mast is cheaper and faster, I don't know WTF the argument is about that, except that this HP is claimed to be cheaper, yet has a more expensive mast, so somehow deny it??

So we STILL don't have an answer, is this your boat luc, and what did it cost?
1/ I doubt a standing rig mast makes a boat faster
2/ the account isnt simply a mast, its mast, standing rigging reinforcing the hulls and decks, ongoing maintenance.
3/ someone has to explain to me what this standing rig is laid out and what it incorporates, and how it is to shunt
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Old 21-05-2015, 12:07   #159
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Y
The proa design is basically forced into an unstayed mast if you want it over the downwind hull because if you ever got back winded, there would be nothing to support it. It's a design compromise to accomodate a limitation of the proa.
Most pacific proa's have stayed masts but you make the right argument why unstayed masts make more sense, particularly for a proa.
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Old 21-05-2015, 12:08   #160
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
because for monohulls for the mostpart most wont go fast enough to benefit if speed where the consideration. Catamarans are harder to secure a stayless mast unless its a biplane rig. There is quite simply a small audience, but nonetheless an ever greater presence in racing. They are predominantly populating custom designed and built boats, not stock boats which are far more numerous. We are talking about the difference between 6kts and 10kts. You are still well below the speeds where aerodynamics of the rig are a limiting factor.



except this is a fast cruising boat. I dont know this but I would assume area to area it would be faster than a cat, cats are faster than monos etc. If you would install such a mast on a mono (and people do) you would have more reason to do so on a proa No, that was one of the debates a while back and nothing has been put forward to show the proa is faster than a cat with similar design criteria (ie: 40' accomodations with 60 hulls.). People putting unstayed masts on are typically racers who will spend whatever it takes to squeeze the tiniest amount of speed out of the boat (often they get nothing but bragging rights and no extra speed)



I could be wrong but I cant see an alloy mast with standing rigging working near as well, so given that perhaps it is a limitation for pacific proas. But it is doubtlessly beneficial for the same reasons it worked on Freedom boats, short handed sailing, safer operation, faster sailing, lighter structure. It's not an advantage, it's a limitation forcing a design compromise.

In any event I havent seen a stayed rig design on a proa that can accomplish shunting, perhaps you can explain to me how that works. That was my point, the proa forces you into an unstayed mast. In theory, you could stay the upwind side and as long as you never let the wind on the back side of the mast, you would be OK but thats something you can't count on.
Unstayed masts are expensive which goes against the original premise that the boat will be cheap relative to both the accomodations and speed. (yes there are many items that go into this beyond just the mast)
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Old 21-05-2015, 12:15   #161
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
...
In any event I havent seen a stayed rig design on a proa that can accomplish shunting, perhaps you can explain to me how that works.
Proa's carry the widest variety of rigs that do shunt, from the most esoteric to the most exotic. That would make quite another thread. The HP has the simplest setup by far except maybe for the ballestron rig.
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Old 21-05-2015, 12:26   #162
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
....
So we STILL don't have an answer, is this your boat luc, and what did it cost?
We still don't have the answer after fifty years. The HP cruiser order is being quoted taking into account the first owner's preferences (not me). If the parties are willing we should have a concrete price fork soon.
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Old 21-05-2015, 13:03   #163
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Re: extending the saloon

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We are talking about the difference between 6kts and 10kts. You are still well below the speeds where aerodynamics of the rig are a limiting factor.
your problem is you never quantified the drag of wire or rod rigging. So check this out
the aero drag exceeds that of water drag. Given this boat has drag reduction strategies in place
Im thinking more attention needs to be given to aero drag/sail efficiency

'I' think thats conclusive

http://www.shuttleworthdesign.com/Do...0-article.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
Unstayed masts are expensive which goes against the original premise that the boat will be cheap relative to both the accomodations and speed. (yes there are many items that go into this beyond just the mast)
yes I agree that as it stands they are expensive, if thats your biggest gripe Im pretty sure there are thing that could be done about that, it would just be heavier, perhaps 20-30% or so.
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Old 21-05-2015, 13:20   #164
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Re: extending the saloon

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Unstayed masts are expensive which goes against the original premise that the boat will be cheap relative to both the accomodations and speed. (yes there are many items that go into this beyond just the mast)

Economically, it is nearly impossible for a cat to have a free mast. You don't have the bury height of a mono or tri. The engineering problems of distributing loads are are just too much to overcome for a production cat. This is why you wont see many because a cat can not adapt to them but other boats can and far more cheaply hence the claim, "the boat will be cheap relative to both the accomodations and speed"

A mono can adapt to free masts very easily but a mono would need two which still may not be enough when heavily displaced hence it needs that foresail.

The harryproa is light and can take advantage of unstayed mast cheaply because in a similar fashion to the mono it also has a lot of bury height due to the masts being mounted on the hull unlike a cat.

Perfect fit.
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Old 21-05-2015, 14:33   #165
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Re: extending the saloon

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Economically, it is nearly impossible for a cat to have a free mast. You don't have the bury height of a mono or tri. The engineering problems of distributing loads are are just too much to overcome for a production cat. This is why you wont see many because a cat can not adapt to them but other boats can and far more cheaply hence the claim, "the boat will be cheap relative to both the accomodations and speed"

A mono can adapt to free masts very easily but a mono would need two which still may not be enough when heavily displaced hence it needs that foresail.

The harryproa is light and can take advantage of unstayed mast cheaply because in a similar fashion to the mono it also has a lot of bury height due to the masts being mounted on the hull unlike a cat.

Perfect fit.
Of course that bury comes at the expense of interior and is a big part of why you don't see them in cruising boats.

Of course, with no price provided so far...hmmm...I suspect when all is done and said, that price isn't going to be a selling point.

Nothing about a mono requires two masts and there is nothing show so far suggesting the proa has any special benefits that allow for a smaller rig if it's still supposed to be high performance.
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