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Old 20-05-2015, 13:37   #136
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Can even get sun stroke in Great Britain.

From a Dazcat/Multimarine newsletter.

"The Broadblue Rapier 550 has been doing extensive sea trials and even the odd race. We sailed her to victory in the Round the Island race, proving the novel aspects of her design work really well. Half the fleet had to retire due to light winds - or through sun stroke, as it was a super-hot day - but we did not have a problem, as the cockpit on the Rapier is inside and it proved this was no disadvantage when sailing in scorching sun and light winds. In fact, we were a little cold at times as the ventilation given by the hatch design worked incredibly well, which meant we did not even need to turn on the air con.

Philippe from Multihull World magazine joined us for the race and a full report will be published in the next issue. A great time was had by all onboard, who were made up of a variety of mono, dinghy and multihull sailors, all of whom were massively impressed with her performance and comfort. Simon ordered us a celebratory curry in Cowes, rounding off a great weekend on the Rapier, and we look forward to having another go on her soon. Thank you Jim, you have a lovely boat."
Thank you downunder and paulanthony for the discussion. Both of your arguments complete a decision matrix depending on the use of the boat. On one hand configuring a boat for sailing the baltic sea like the vs one for diving at the Great barrier reef (never been to either). The HP cruiser allows a good escape from the sun inside but I can see the argument for covering every flat space that is reachable like the Kelsall proa does. Despite its somewhat aerodynamic shape I would not feel comfortable in very high winds. Maybe in reality it is not that bad but it looks architecturally much more challenging.

The Rapier 550 made it easy: almost all flat space is interior.
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Old 20-05-2015, 13:55   #137
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
...

No one thing is exclusive, plainly these masts are a good fit
Thank you ZULU40 and Valhalla360 for the discussion. My priorities are safety and ease of use. Unstayed mast wins on ease of use. But obviously any mast that comes down is not safe, stayed or unstayed. This discussion has me look some more in the eigenfrequency of cantilever beams and means to dampen resonant vibration. Of course the reality of a sailboat is more complicated than the theoretical set of equations but it seems not to be rocket science to design a mast that is not prone to these vibrations and not that difficult to test the mast in place if the dampening works as calculated. If that bears out it is also comforting that there is less windage in storms. Also a reason for not pursuing a wingmast. So, the sailing performance, cost and sailing weight are secondary features. I note that the difference in those between the two setups is not an order of magnitude whichever way goes the advantage.
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Old 20-05-2015, 13:58   #138
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
in which case, you have no point, ..... which is it?


unstayed masts have less points of failure

Fewer points of failure is not the same as less failure. If you have one point of failure that gives out one every 1,000hrs on average and another that has two points of failure that each give out once every 10,000hrs on average. I'll take the device with two points of failure as it's less likely to fail.


I've seen stories about unstayed masts failing, so your fewer points of failure still fail. Again not saying unstayed masts are failure prone just that no production boat has a mast that is failure prone.

nonsense
on any boat with speed as part of its creed, unstayed masts are an advantage. Particularly since among this boats skillset it needs ease of handling, and can vent the rig by bending forces and feathering.

I thought we were talking about cruising boats. I already said on racing boats, they are willing to make sacrafices to gain extra speed (but as someone else just posted, some pretty high end speed machines still use stays)

No one thing is exclusive, plainly these masts are a good fit
So if unstayed masts are so great why are the vast majority of boats (monohulls included) still using stays? They've been around for quite a while and I see no significant shift towards widespread usage outside SOME racing boats and a couple of oddballs.
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:17   #139
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Those look like stays on the fastest no expense spared boats...

So lucdekeyser, is this your HurrayProa boat they are building?

Fantastic boat.
But my priorities are safety and ease of use.
Is this mast not comforting?
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:54   #140
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
So if unstayed masts are so great why are the vast majority of boats (monohulls included) still using stays? They've been around for quite a while and I see no significant shift towards widespread usage outside SOME racing boats and a couple of oddballs.
These are all valid points, valhalla360. An evidence based decision is not possible because there are not sufficient systematized data. If this were a comparison between two therapies in medicine we would need to build 100 identical boats for each mast setup and have them sail the seven seas for ten years and then report on the failures. The aviation industry goes through material testing, simulations et al as even they cannot afford to sacrifice 100 planes. I have seen the stress test of the J foil of the G4. And that is an expensive boat. I am too embarrassed to show that to my aviation friends. And that is probably the best one can get in sailboats.
So, the other tack is to look at the design from its constituents parts and try to stay out of the combinatoric explosion of possibilities to be considered. This favors as simple parts as possible and as few parts as possible to do the job. The HP cruiser is pretty simple overall comparatively. There are a couple of crucial parts that are more tricky than I would like though but their level of trickiness does not go off deep into left field.
But you are also correct to point out that stayed masts with most production boats are most likely not a major problem. It would be interesting to do an analysis comparing with a biplane rigged production catamaran. I am not sure there are any. Or a stayed mast schooner production catamaran?
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Old 20-05-2015, 15:51   #141
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
So if unstayed masts are so great why are the vast majority of boats (monohulls included) still using stays? They've been around for quite a while and I see no significant shift towards widespread usage outside SOME racing boats and a couple of oddballs.
Couple of oddballs? Superb objective reasoning that. The vast majority of boats are probably using free standing masts.

You need to work your way down the pyramid. When you get to the most prolific class of boat called a dinghy you see 1000's of unstayed masts.

Your boat needs a foresail so it can go up wind better. For that it needs a forestay then for that it needs tension so then you need a back stay. If you did not need a foresail then you would be rather silly to choose a stayed mast at to days costs.. A few years back you would be forgiven but as prices get cheaper you may start to see more designers move to other rig types so they can take advantage of a free standing mast. Who would not want the benefit?

In the main(haha like my joke?) it has been to do with prohibitive costs even though materials and the tech has been around for a while.

This harryproa design lends itself perfectly to a free standing rig. Why in all the why's would they choose a stayed mast?

Maybe there will be a bit of aero lost because of a wider cross section.. But that would not be a reason for having one or not having one and you get that back on windage.

There you go, there are some facts for you. I hope it's helps and I will not laugh. I promise.
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Old 20-05-2015, 16:09   #142
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Re: extending the saloon

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
So if unstayed masts are so great why are the vast majority of boats (monohulls included) still using stays? They've been around for quite a while and I see no significant shift towards widespread usage outside SOME racing boats and a couple of oddballs.
Because people such as yourself seem stuck, or unable to move on from convention for who knows what reason.There have been many products that have been inovated that the market hasnt adopted, not because they werent better but because people are often more comfortable with what they know.Unstayed masts have more than proven themselves. Sure they have some limitations but overall they are perfectly suited for cruising yachts. As mentioned earlier google Spondberg or Wylie and read with a open mind. Ive had both stayed and unstayed carbon fiber rigs, it would be hard to go back to wires, I just cant see the benefits. Also mentioned earlier, do you see aircraft with wires holding there wings up? I have no problem with people having conventional rigs but most often there arguements in regards to stayless rigs are just fear based and neither experienced or lodgic based.
Dam, I got sucked into this non winable argument!

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Old 20-05-2015, 16:29   #143
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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Originally Posted by lucdekeyser View Post
Thank you downunder and paulanthony for the discussion. Both of your arguments complete a decision matrix depending on the use of the boat. On one hand configuring a boat for sailing the baltic sea like the vs one for diving at the Great barrier reef (never been to either). The HP cruiser allows a good escape from the sun inside but I can see the argument for covering every flat space that is reachable like the Kelsall proa does. Despite its somewhat aerodynamic shape I would not feel comfortable in very high winds. Maybe in reality it is not that bad but it looks architecturally much more challenging.

The Rapier 550 made it easy: almost all flat space is interior.
You will find with the original drawings without a verandah the saloon cabin will not be a cool as you think particually with no overhangs. The best and most of the new current cat designs [even Schonning) are using overhangs with opening windows to avoid AC. The harry proa drawing suggests the saloon could be warmish to me. I am talking tropics to Equator regions. You will find the hardtop canopy compliments the saloon with many advantages including in tropical downpoors and you would not have to cover the total area.

It won't be me cooking in the sun. Think liveability for your wife.

cheers
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Old 20-05-2015, 16:37   #144
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

I agree the salon looks warmish. I have spend most of my cruising time in North qld and Asia, currently in the Philippines, the sun is a major problem and I spend most of my time hiding from it. I really like this design but also worry about the sun and how to keep out of it with out taking away from the boats good looks. I was thinking what if the salon window's were hinged like on a hard dodger Amel, that would change the salon completely.

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Old 20-05-2015, 17:01   #145
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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You will find with the original drawings without a verandah the saloon cabin will not be a cool as you think particually with no overhangs. The best and most of the new current cat designs 9even Schonning) are using overhangs with opening windows to avoid AC. The harry proa drawing suggests the saloon could be warmish to me. I am talking tropics to Equator regions. You will find the hardtop canopy compliments the saloon and would not have to cover the total area.

cheers
When it is finished let me have it for a 3 month commissioning period and I will report back on whether you need a big umbrella or not. Don't worry I won't charge you.

To be honest I think you will find you do not need so much. At rest a tent sounds a good idea but I lived in 45c sunny temps in Qatar and sailed and boated massive amounts. Whilst on the move with a modicum of sun shade I think you will be fine. I never got fried once in 5 years and I have light skin. Your main issue is a couple of hours mid day and either side of that you will get shade from the sails and super structure. I worry you will spoil it if you run with large permanent overhangs and then I might not want to buy it if you sell it. That Schonning is claustrophobic. I would try to keep the spirit of the original design. Looks great!

If I was you I would prepare some anchor points ready for a full monty overhang if you discovered it was needed later but with the saloon able to be nearly totally open I would give it a trial with something much smaller and of a temporary nature first.

Anyway, keep us posted. (very jealous)
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Old 20-05-2015, 22:40   #146
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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When it is finished let me have it for a 3 month commissioning period and I will report back on whether you need a big umbrella or not. Don't worry I won't charge you.

To be honest I think you will find you do not need so much. At rest a tent sounds a good idea but I lived in 45c sunny temps in Qatar and sailed and boated massive amounts. Whilst on the move with a modicum of sun shade I think you will be fine. I never got fried once in 5 years and I have light skin. Your main issue is a couple of hours mid day and either side of that you will get shade from the sails and super structure. I worry you will spoil it if you run with large permanent overhangs and then I might not want to buy it if you sell it. That Schonning is claustrophobic. I would try to keep the spirit of the original design. Looks great!

If I was you I would prepare some anchor points ready for a full monty overhang if you discovered it was needed later It willbut with the saloon able to be nearly totally open I would give it a trial with something much smaller and of a temporary nature first.

Anyway, keep us posted. (very jealous)
Exactly the point for Luc. it is much better for him to have the job done by Ballotta at build in the factory than later at the wharf after launch as there is not a marina with liftout for that size vessel in Lima having spent 3 weeks there with Giorgio Ballotta only cranes.

If Rob Denny can't come up with a solution I am sure Giorgio Ballotta can come up with something that is asthetically appealing as he does nice work.

The point also is that Rob Denney's Model renderer also has a sun seeking not sun aware design in his blood coming from the Baltic area. The saloon design is drawn to capture the sun not provide protection.

Note Dale Tourniers comments.

I agree many of Schonning's designs in the small range are somewhat clostrophic however some of his recent designs are more practical for liveaboard cruising and are including overhangs. His arrow range also.

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Old 21-05-2015, 03:28   #147
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

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I agree the salon looks warmish. I have spend most of my cruising time in North qld and Asia, currently in the Philippines, the sun is a major problem and I spend most of my time hiding from it. I really like this design but also worry about the sun and how to keep out of it with out taking away from the boats good looks. I was thinking what if the salon window's were hinged like on a hard dodger Amel, that would change the salon completely.

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If primarily the windows are about checking traffic from within or without the cabin, then to keep the windows more shaded and cooler, ultimately it needs more vertical glass, and perhaps a brow or shade over the windows. Not unlike the solution used on the front of the bridgedeck cabin on Lagoon cats.

Having succeeded in establishing a pacific proa in the cruising boat category then really these things are almost cosmetic in comparison. Which is not to dull the importance, it simply adds to the sophistication of the design.

In Europe of course they will have a different view, and we see that in imported European boats with the placement of glazing overhead. Beneteau boats just for example. One can almost taste what it would feel like on a moonlit night with the cabin lights turned down.

Any less glass might mean a reworking or relocation of the helm station to be able to get an adequate view to weather.
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Old 21-05-2015, 04:06   #148
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Re: New style Harryproa cruiser

Absolutely agree, cosmetic issues to be solved , really not that important.

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Old 21-05-2015, 04:43   #149
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Re: extending the saloon

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Couple of oddballs? Superb objective reasoning that. The vast majority of boats are probably using free standing masts.

You need to work your way down the pyramid. When you get to the most prolific class of boat called a dinghy you see 1000's of unstayed masts.

Your boat needs a foresail so it can go up wind better. For that it needs a forestay then for that it needs tension so then you need a back stay. If you did not need a foresail then you would be rather silly to choose a stayed mast at to days costs.. A few years back you would be forgiven but as prices get cheaper you may start to see more designers move to other rig types so they can take advantage of a free standing mast. Who would not want the benefit?

In the main(haha like my joke?) it has been to do with prohibitive costs even though materials and the tech has been around for a while.

This harryproa design lends itself perfectly to a free standing rig. Why in all the why's would they choose a stayed mast?

Maybe there will be a bit of aero lost because of a wider cross section.. But that would not be a reason for having one or not having one and you get that back on windage.

There you go, there are some facts for you. I hope it's helps and I will not laugh. I promise.
When people start crossing oceans in little sunfish dingys, your argument is relevant.

Until then there are a few one off boats and nonesuch (spelling?) monohulls for cruising boats with unstayed masts. I can't think of another widely available boat with unstayed masts.

I actually kind of like the nonesuch but they don't meet our needs. Proa evangilists keep trying to side track this into the idea I hate unstayed masts. That was never the point and I've reiterated it a couple times now.
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Old 21-05-2015, 04:55   #150
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Re: extending the saloon

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Because people such as yourself seem stuck, or unable to move on from convention for who knows what reason.There have been many products that have been inovated that the market hasnt adopted, not because they werent better but because people are often more comfortable with what they know.Unstayed masts have more than proven themselves. Sure they have some limitations but overall they are perfectly suited for cruising yachts. As mentioned earlier google Spondberg or Wylie and read with a open mind. Ive had both stayed and unstayed carbon fiber rigs, it would be hard to go back to wires, I just cant see the benefits. Also mentioned earlier, do you see aircraft with wires holding there wings up? I have no problem with people having conventional rigs but most often there arguements in regards to stayless rigs are just fear based and neither experienced or lodgic based.
Dam, I got sucked into this non winable argument!

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I have no intrinsic objection to unstayed masts but if they were all around better, they would quickly come to dominate the market. They have their limitations just like any design. There is no secret cabal suppressing unstayed masts. My take on it is they are comparatively expensive for no significant benefit cruising. In addition they impact the interior to a greater degree.

As far as airplanes are concerned when you have a cruising boat that has a cruising speed ranging between 60-500mph, it's relevant. But with typical cruising boat speeds (even high performance cruising boat), any aerodynamic advantage is negligible. If you don't understand this look up how wind resistance changes with speed. At normal cruising speeds, there are no significant gains to be made. (on thinking about it, planes made the change when speeds started to increase beyond 60-100mph. At lower speeds, it wasn't much of an issue and in fact most small low speed planes still use struts to support the wings as it reliable and cheaper.)
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