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Old 01-05-2013, 16:41   #46
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

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I think your Perpetual motion reference is flawed, there is an external source of energy, the wind, so there is no "perpetual Motion" at work here,
There is in the sense of free energy. You would have to get free energy from somewhere to overcome the drag forces. The wind creating the drag won't do as a source.


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equally your analogy on gravity, while interesting is of no relevance to the issue at hand.
The analogy works, because it was my intention to show that drag matters. So much in fact, that it eluded som great minds in the past, and that it's a matter of simple physics. No amount of padding the physics in nice words and large paragraphs will change that you cannot overcome drag to create lift in the suggested manner.


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Having said that I dont dismiss the issues people are raising, just some of tangental references.
Sure, nothing like commenting on something, while not understanding it, and then pretend you're not making a point. Oh, wait.
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Old 01-05-2013, 16:51   #47
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

Here's another way of explaining it:

Think of this in a medium with less viscosity: Water.

Would under water appendages be able to positioned so it could go directly upstream, overcoming the drag? No, of course not. If that was possible, you could create your own little stream to get everything started (i.e. have a little outboard to get the thing moving to create flow), and it would then be able to go on indefinitely, because it could overcome drag by somehow utilising that drag to create lift.

Do you see where my reference to perpetual motion is derived from?
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Old 01-05-2013, 17:06   #48
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

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Sure, nothing like commenting on something, while not understanding it, and then pretend you're not making a point. Oh, wait.
And you know this how - simply because I don't agree with you? Here is an idea, pose your questions directly to Chris, see what he says about it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 17:09   #49
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

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And you know this how - simply because I don't agree with you? Here is an idea, pose your questions directly to Chris, see what he says about it.
I was replying to your comment in that particular paragraph, not something Chris White had said, so why on earth should I take it up with him? You're the one who didn't understand why I mentioned "free energy" and why I mentioned the idea of things falling according to their mass being wrong, and you're the one who dismissed it, while obviously not understanding the first thing about the physics you dismissed.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:33   #50
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

Ummm lets see, forward thrust from the mast foils versus side force on the mast foils actually acting towards the dock because of the angle of attack+wind pressure on the hulls.....who cares what is under water?
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:41   #51
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

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Ummm lets see, forward thrust from the mast foils versus side force on the mast foils actually acting towards the dock because of the angle of attack+wind pressure on the hulls.....who cares what is under water?
Water works the same as air, only thicker. There are no difference, hence my example - an example I felt was necessary since he didn't understand the explanation when it dealt with air. And no, you don't even need to consider drag or resistance from the hull. A foil alone can't do it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:47   #52
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

A tandem windsurfer would illustrate the problem well. No hull windage or drag to speak of.....just that darn "side thrust".
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:50   #53
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

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A tandem windsurfer would illustrate the problem well. No hull windage or drag to speak of.....just that darn "side thrust".
Yup, that actually would be a good example. No way getting that going direct into the wind either. Drag becomes more and more and lift becoming less and less relatively speaking, and when your try to increase lift you proportionally increase drag. You can never increase lift to the point where it overcomes drag. At that point, you would have an indefinitely accellerating foil (and vessel, since it accellerates indefinitely, even a miniscule foil would eventually be able to pull a supertanker, or indeed entire oceans and more).
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Old 01-05-2013, 21:16   #54
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

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I was replying to your comment in that particular paragraph, not something Chris White had said, so why on earth should I take it up with him? You're the one who didn't understand why I mentioned "free energy" and why I mentioned the idea of things falling according to their mass being wrong, and you're the one who dismissed it, while obviously not understanding the first thing about the physics you dismissed.
Thanks for the insult about my understanding, I will have to return my Science qualifications to my university. I clearly understand your comments about the rate of fall in a vacuum. Everyone since Galileo has probably grasped that. My comments were in relation purely to your statement that it would amount to perpetual motion, in that there is an outside source of energy, when there clearly is. But go right ahead. My comment about CWD comes from your apparent view that HE doesn't understand the laws of physics, my suggestion was that you ask him directly.

But enough of this idle navel gazing, I'm guessing you aren't ever going to have one of his boats anyway. I'm out of here.
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Old 01-05-2013, 21:24   #55
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Re: New Revolutionary Rig ?

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Thanks for the insult about my understanding, I will have to return my Science qualifications to my university. I clearly understand your comments about the rate of fall in a vacuum. Everyone since Galileo has probably grasped that. My comments were in relation purely to your statement that it would amount to perpetual motion, in that there is an outside source of energy, when there clearly is. But go right ahead. My comment about CWD comes from your apparent view that HE doesn't understand the laws of physics, my suggestion was that you ask him directly.
It's about forces. You will need a force to overcome the drag, and the lift wont do it, as the "source" is the same as the one producing the freaking drag. You still have not grasped why "free energy" pertains to this, because you haven't understood how the lift will never, ever, be able to overcome the drag. And no, I don't need to go ask CW about plain old physics, nor does your attempt to make an argument from authority about your science education work, when you still don't grasp the basic concept of this and how forces work. If you feel like it was an insult to show you exactly were you went wrong and how you went wrong, so be it.

I explained it with several examples. You were the one who decided to comment on how misappropriate my examples were, without even understanding the basics physics involved. And after having had the correlation explained, you still don't get the physics of forces involved.




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But enough of this idle navel gazing, I'm guessing you aren't ever going to have one of his boats anyway. I'm out of here.
Ah, yes, after you responding to my post, and receiving a response from me showing just how wrong you are, then it's "idle navel gazing", completely ignoring the fact that Chris White tried to pass this off as something doable (i.e. overcoming drag by pointing the foil into the wind at the right angle). Pointing out when something is wrong, when someone with commercial interests are utterly wrong and misleading is not "idle navel gazing" in my book. But since you deferred me to Chris White to ask him questions, perhaps you should be so kind to let him explain to you how he is able to overcome physics as we know it.
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